Progressive Solutions for Operational Challenges with Circuit Court Judge David Byrn

Voice Over:

Welcome to the 360 Justice podcast where criminal justice leaders talk about how they are solving tough social infrastructure issues, like aging facilities, insufficient funding, and adequate staffing and an ever-changing political climate. Here’s your host, Eli Gage.

Eli Gage:

So welcome everybody to the 360 Justice podcast. I’m your host, Eli Gage, and I’m delighted to be joined today with Judge David Byrn with the Jackson County Circuit Court. Judge, thanks for joining us today.

Judge David Byrn:

Great to be with Eli, you and Chloe. Thanks for having me.

Eli Gage:

And Chloe Jaco Director of Planning at CGL. I think I know this number now, but I think it’s been about 28 years. You’ve been in this business.

Chloe Jaco:

Correct.

Eli Gage:

And I think I’ve know Chloe since probably day one in my time here. So welcome everybody. Thank you, Chloe, for helping me host and thank you, Judge for being on.

Judge David Byrn:

My pleasure. It’s great to be here with you today. It’s a great team at CGL, so I’m glad to be here. Eli, you mentioned something that really struck me, which was how Jackson County never missed a beat in the middle of COVID. We started in January and less than two months later. We were on lockdown and, and since then we’ve done everything virtually sometimes multiple times a week. The group at CGL has been fantastic in terms of driving this project. And you know, I can’t imagine it working any better than it has in the middle of really unique circumstances. So hats off to CGL for doing a great job with that. One of the things that I think is unique in our conversations that has been really important for the steering committee that was set up. And what it allowed us to do is have what I’ll call all of the disciplines involved in the justice system at the table. For all of the conversations from beginning to end, I think what we’ve sometimes seen historically in the justice system is what I’ll call a siloing effect. Everybody has their own role and their own part, and often times handle those separate and apart from others. And that’s good up to a point because everybody does have a unique role and from a court perspective, for example, we do our part and we need to do it independent of the others involved in the process, true of everybody else. But I think what we’re seeing is the value of really sitting down and working together, even though everybody is independent and as different part of the process, getting everybody together truly does allow for that the 360 coverage of all of the stakeholders being involved, that has been a great value in keeping this project going.

Eli Gage:

In terms of how this type, how your operation, you know, we’ve got some other projects, core projects, Chloe, I think you can probably tell me which ones they are, but I think it’s Massachusetts courts. Some of the other projects that we’re working on have almost come to a halt because they’re trying to figure out, what are court operations going to look like going forward? How much of that is being discussed as you guys work through this project for the jail?

Chloe Jaco:

Well, I’m a, I’ll let the judge speak on that too, but that has you know, planning a new facility in the midst of change is pretty interesting. And you know, one of our touchstones that we set together with steering committee was that we wanted to plan something new, you know, what does the next generation of a detention center? And I would say that doing that at the time of this pandemic has really made us think about that. And we’ll give some more examples of how that’s impacted it, but it has, I think to answer you Eli, it has driven our entire process because we’ve been in the middle of it during the entire thing. So judge, what would you like to add about that

Judge David Byrn:

A couple of thoughts. You know, it’s almost like creating a new, new we’re really looking at in the judicial system and the entire justice system, a pretty significant change in thought as to how we handle people that are in the system from beginning to end, the way that we look at them, we’re trying to handle things from a more holistic approach, a more personal approach if you will. And it gets back to that idea that, you know, treating people with respect, even if they are involved in the criminal justice system is still a fundamental thing we all ought to be doing. And it really does change the thought process, how we move forward. So we are really reinventing the justice system in some ways. And the fact that I was on a task force in Missouri, that was the criminal justice re-investment task force looking at how do we do things new? The second part of the new is we’re doing this in the middle of COVID. So whatever new was before March has changed. And we add that second layer of new. Now I’ve had some conversation with some judges in Massachusetts, Eli with what you’re referring to based on some seminars and some webinars that I’ve done. And I know that they are really looking at where do they go from here? I think probably judges across the country are thinking the same thing. We’re looking at courthouses from our perspective, what can we learn from detention centers? Many of the things that Chloe and her team have introduced into this process, how can we incorporate those into court houses as well? So it really has, it’s been a lot of fun, honestly. I think it’s been a huge challenge and it has been a lot of fun to try to kind of imagine the future.

Eli Gage:

So going back to the steering committee idea, you know, talking to Bob and to Chloe, obviously CGL really likes that process because instead of trying to put a band-aid on one thing, it’s really stepping back and taking the holistic approach that you’re talking about. We did it in Maricopa. They were extremely happy with that. To some extent we’ve been doing that in Alabama with Jeff Dunn in terms of the interaction with the owner from the get-go. So where did Jackson County, how did you come up with the idea for a steering committee? Obviously you as the judge are very involved now in the detention facility and as Chloe pointed out to me the other day, you know, the courts effect the detention facility, obviously. So is that something that you guys came up with on your own? Is that a best practice that you, that you learned about in the industry? How did that come to fruition?

Judge David Byrn:

Some of that was before CGL got involved. I’d been long talking with members of the legislature with regard to the needs at the detention center, because it does impact the court and what we do impacts the detention center. So there’s been a long need for some changes and improvements in Jackson County. And I think because of my interaction with them and really people understanding the impact that one has on the other, it naturally, I think, made sense to have the court system involved, you know, interesting. As a judge, I guess I can say this courts probably have been less open to being involved in this process in the past. And I think there’s some good reasons for that. It’s not our job as judges and as courts to decide how detention centers or penitentiaries are run and set their policies and procedures. And so there is probably been more of a hands-off approach, but I think at least from my standpoint, I think what we’re beginning to see and clearly saw in Jackson County is the value of recognizing the input of the court, not in the final decisions, but simply being part of the discussion. One thing unique we’re doing in Jackson County and Chloe can talk to, this is the degree of integration of court services in the detention center. For example, we will have probably at least two judges either at the detention center or very close to it within the footprint, for example, to handle a lot of the preliminary matters with all of the criminal cases that come through our system. So they’re dealing with the folks at the detention center all the time. We’re also building in the capability to conduct a jury trial within the footprint of the detention center. I think that is fairly new, but if you think about it, it makes a lot of sense from a security standpoint, from a cost standpoint there’s a lot of advantages of doing it. And so I think that at least for me having the, the judges, the courts involved in this process absolutely makes sense. Courts, I think by nature are creatures of tradition, which I think is a good thing. Courts should be the stabilizing force in society and not react too far one way or the other as changes happen in society. That also sometimes makes us a little bit slower in coming to processes like this. So I think this has worked fantastic. And to me, it’s kind of part of the new, new, which is incorporating the courts in this process from the beginning.

Chloe Jaco:

Right. And, and as the judge mentioned we, we kind of did an analysis really of staff movements from the jail. And when we realized some of the transportation time that is being spent to taking custody from the jail to the courthouse, and we were able to narrow that into a certain type of proceedings, like the judge mentioned. So we kind of said, Hey, if we put them out there, co located with the facility, we’re going to have some savings of money and transportation and time, and hopefully, quicker access to justice. So it’s a win, win, win. So that was almost a no brainer, I think we’ve kind of even proved that out with some numbers, right, judge, that it was a good business. But coupled with this, with having the new facility and better technology, we all acknowledge the right off the bat, we’ve got to have improved access to video capabilities for access to the courts and also to lawyers representation. And not only that, but even have some type of electronic document transfer. So we’re, you know, we’re also integrating that into the plan and into the space listing. So it’s trying to get that balance because we were still defining, as we’ve said, what’s the new, new going to be. So we’ve got to be as flexible to accommodating all of that. So making sure we had the technology there to give us the remote and video access, but also having the right services on site that just make economical sense.

Judge David Byrn:

You know, the technology part has been really kind of interesting because not only are we talking exactly what Chloe said about increasing technology and capabilities, but we’re also trying to plan for future technology that we don’t know. We don’t know what it is. We don’t know how it’s going to exist. And so creating that flexibility, that nimbleness, if you will to be able to adapt has been an interesting challenge as well, you know, right now with COVID the detention center here and across the country, if they’re not in lockdown, they are really restricting access, which makes sense. They need to do that from a safety standpoint, but that also then creates problems from a court standpoint and attorney standpoint with attorneys being able to visit with clients confidentially and for us to be able to interact with defendants while they’re in detention centers. And so Chloe is right, the sharing, not only of the documents, but the ability to have those confidential communications between attorneys and their clients who are in a detention center and then bring everybody together for a virtual hearing in court. That has been a challenge as we learn as we go, but we are learning and seeing the value of that. And honestly, the savings, not some money yes. But time. And, and the value that you get for the detainees, for the defendants, the attorneys, the courts, everybody wins from that.

Eli Gage:

Where is Jackson County now in terms of court dates what’s going on at the current detention facility? Where is Jackson County in terms of the rest of the country, in your opinion?

Judge David Byrn:

I think we’re probably in line with the vast majority of States and jurisdictions. We have resumed jury trials just recently. That’s been kind of the last piece of the puzzle from a court standpoint and trying to get back to the proverbial new normal we’ve been doing video hearings since March we’ve used telephone conferences a lot. We are having in-person hearings, but the missing piece has been the ability to do jury trials. So within the last month we’ve started those that’s the most difficult challenge from a court standpoint, because I think, although some places in the country in Texas, I know for example, I’ve talked to some judges down there that did jury trial by zoom. There are a lot of challenges with that. And a lot of difficulties with that, keeping people’s attention, honestly judges and lawyers will tell you about the feel of a trial. You don’t get the feel of the witness or the jury or what’s going on unless you’re together. And that is a real thing, and it is hard to do virtually. So that’s been the last piece of the puzzle or starting them and knock on wood. We’ll be able to continue to move forward with that.

Eli Gage:

And how about the detention center? What are the protocols there currently?

Judge David Byrn:

The detention center has had extremely limited access since March from the court’s standpoint, unless you’re coming for a trial, we don’t bring anybody from the detention center into court. Everything else is virtual. They are not allowed for the most part. I should say, they’re not allowing in-person visits. They’re doing a lot virtually with the attorneys. The large majority of that is virtually as well. They’ve really tried to create this safe cocoon, if you will, and not have people come and go and to their credit. So far the COVID numbers within the detention center have been very low. And I think that’s because of the pretty serious restrictions that they put in place. And once again, then Eli, you have the balance of the restrictions for safety and health, but you have to provide access to justice. And so that’s where the technology component that Chloe talked about is vitally important in this whole process.

Eli Gage:

And what are the protocols in a jury trial currently? I’m envisioning the jury sitting six feet apart in an expanded jury box. How does that look in the court now?

Judge David Byrn:

Probably the best visual I would give you is, think about all of the lawyer shows or the courtroom shows you see on TV or movies. Every one of them is in a big majestic courtroom. And you see the jury all sitting together in the jury box. So whatever comes to mind when you have that visual, it is the exact opposite. We have three or four people depending on social distancing, sitting in the jury box. And then we spread the other jurors throughout the gallery. We move the attorney tables farther apart. We all have plexiglass up around the witness stand around the judge. We, we have to make arrangements, for example, for what we call sidebars. We’re an attorney. The attorneys would want to come up and talk to me out of the hearing of the jury while you, you can’t do that. And socially distance. And so we’ve added some technology with some white noise where we can actually use the white noise and headphones to have a conversation without the jury hearing, you know, spreading everybody out then creates this issue. You have people that want to watch trials that have an interest in the trials and in the spaces we have available, we can’t accommodate that. And so we’ve made arrangements to have them sit perhaps in an adjoining courtroom, if it is open we have experimented with live streaming on YouTube that creates new challenges in terms of the technology. You want to be careful that you don’t create a mechanism for either interruptions to occur or for people to record what is going on and take things out of context, and then post it, for example, in a criminal case, we tell jurors, you can’t read anything on Facebook, or look at any media. You can’t do any investigation about the case, but if it’s there on YouTube or Facebook, it’s just another hurdle that we have to deal with. So I often tell our judges for every solution we come up with, there’s the ripple effect of about 10 more questions that have to be answered?

Chloe Jaco:

Are you limiting the number of spectators or are they just not even allowed in the courtroom?

Judge David Byrn:

If we have space, we’ll let them in. But typically with the courtrooms we have in this building, one or two is about the maximum we can get in. Unfortunately we’re further compromised by the fact that in the courthouse and I’m sitting in, in Kansas city last year in February, we had a pretty massive waterline break that flooded about half of our courthouse. So two of our courtrooms that are the largest where Chloe, we could put some spectators in there. They’ve been out of commission since last February. We hope to get them back by the end of this year. So we’ve not only got some COVID issues that we’re dealing with and restrictions, but we’re down about five courtrooms from what we would normally be for conducting trials. So that’s kind of a double challenge we’re dealing with here.

Eli Gage:

So, Chloe, I have a question for you because it’s kind of dawning on me now that you’ve worked on hundreds of projects like this judge you’ve worked on one.

Judge David Byrn:

Yeah. As a matter of fact, that’s right.

Eli Gage:

You know, it’s one of the things that we always tell people and oftentimes the owner, it will dawn on them through the process that we go through that we’ve done. Hundreds of these CGL has worked on hundreds of these projects and oftentimes the owner, it might be their first jail or their first courthouse. So my question to you, Chloe, is it seems to me that Jackson County is super unique given the timeframe because it’s hard to tell where to go. The old rules don’t now apply. Would you agree that this is a very unique project, obviously at a very unique time?

Chloe Jaco:

I would completely agree. And I would say what made it even more interesting is when we kind of started some of our discussions with the group during the programming phase, you know, what’s one of the biggest crisis right now facing jails is how to deal with medical, mental health. So a lot of our conversation, we recognize a lot of the in custody have medical and mental health issues. And how do we best address that in this new facility and thinking of something new, well, overlay that with the pandemic concerns and the need and how does that impact space? So it was, it was really interesting. So it was like a double whammy perspective to think of what this group. And so I think one of the unique solutions that we have come up with out of this, which is something new, something that I have seen in any facility that we’ve worked on is we are promoting a concept of the new facility where all of the beds are on the floor, you know, no bunks and, you know, and it does have a square foot additive to it, but percent wise is not that much when we went through it. So I think we talked about something new, we were talking about this, even you could put COVID aside knowing that people are the in custody or getting older, or have mental health issues and special needs, how do we address some of these concerns and how do we provide an environment that brings the tensions and everything down. And so we were kind of talking about that. And then as we just kept talking and especially in light of COVID, and we talked to our healthcare professionals that we did a case study with and they were part of the team and we were like, you know what? It would be the ideal world, the ideal world, if we didn’t have to deal with any bumps at all. And we said, well, wow, what if we had a facility that, you know, bunkless, so right now that is one of our kind of key programming, operational elements. And it was driven kind of about thinking about the profile of the offender, but also thinking in light of what’s going on with health concerns. And then we felt too that it would give us really what we call the most adaptable facility for the future, because you could respond to different changes and things that we don’t know. And we know we don’t know that we don’t know it. So we need to think about that and plan for it better. And so it’s going to give us more flexibility and our adaptability and changing the facility to meet the future needs beyond this timeframe,

Eli Gage:

The adaptability, that seems to be a reoccurring theme. We did a podcast judge with Brian Lee with Maricopa and the big driver of their program was adaptable. And I know in being with some of our, the Bob Glass’s, the Joe Lee’s of the world, when we’re going back now and rebuilding some of the jails or prisons or courthouse that we built in the past, I’ve actually heard him say, boy, we got that wrong. And there was no way to be adaptable. And that is a theme that I’m hearing more and more, which is we don’t know what the future is going to look like, so we better be prepared for it. And if it’s an open shell, it’s an open shell and we’ll adapt around it. So that’s really interesting. Chloe, tell us kind of where we are on the timeline of Jackson right now.

Chloe Jaco:

So right now we’re starting the criteria development phase, which we’ll go into spring of next year. And then, you know, we’ll start really moving more into getting that design development team or whatever. However, they decide to proceed with the project. We’ll kind of be on board then. So it’s a pretty aggressive schedule trying to actually get this facility going within the next three years. You know, so right now, one of our unique challenges we really haven’t talked about this yet as a group here, but the judge and I were talking about this a few days ago is we did all this really pretty innovative thinking and planning, but we still don’t know where the site is. And so, that’s going to be interesting. So right now, as part of the design criteria phase, we’re actually having to outline what are those site requirements? You know, how many miles to access, where’s the nearest courthouse, where’s the nearest hospital, and those distances also impact the level of services that you need to provide on site. So, we’re right now kind of the middle of that and trying to see, that’ll have a further impact on this project and what we decide to do. So, we’re moving pretty fast. So what do you think, judge? I know we were talking about that.

Judge David Byrn:

Well, Chloe, don’t you think that although maybe initially counterintuitive that we would do all of the programming and planning without having a site? At least for me, I think it makes perfect sense, even though it’s, again, counterintuitive, perhaps a little different, because the idea here is let’s not only create new, but let’s create state of the art and state of the future. And so you do that through the programming and hopefully we find the space where we can put it. I think we will, but I think it makes sense, even though there may have been a little bit of initial thought of why are we doing it this way?

Eli Gage:

So delivery method has been determined at this point?

Eli Gage:

All of that’s being evaluated. Right now, as part of the current phase.

Judge David Byrn:

The one thing I would say is I think we’ve all agreed. I think we agreed from the start that the placement would not be in the city. So to speak the detention center right now is right across the street from our courthouse in downtown Kansas city. We also have a courthouse out in the Eastern part of our County, but I think we all agreed it would not be an urban detention center. So that part is agreed upon. The question is, where do we put it? And again, to go back to your idea of flexibility, Eli, I don’t think you can really put a detention center in an urban location and have that flexibility built in. Which honestly begs the same question for courthouses. I’ve found is talk to Chloe and we’ve gone through this that a lot of the things that we talk about in the detention center and the flexibility and the adaptation, those are challenges in this courthouse I’m in and probably in most courthouses across the country. I think we’re beginning to face those same challenges and rethinking of what is a courthouse, not only because of COVID issues, but I’d say from an internal standpoint operations, how do we, how do we handle justice in a new world where the needs of people that actually come to the courthouse have gone down and yet there’s still the same need for access to justice and even more transparency.

Chloe Jaco:

I think talking in our planning and programming sessions, how our operational philosophy would drive the space, it really does lend itself more to that campus kind of environment. Right? So then again, doing a high rise, a middle of an urban center is a little challenging to the vision of what we’re trying to do operationally. So it’s going mention and to see how we, how we can balance all that in the site selection phase that we’re in.

Judge David Byrn:

Chloe, also I was thinking what you said about the no bunk beds, nominal extra costs for the square footage. I was amazed that the cost, when you really get down to this, compare it to operating a current facility that is dated to be nice. Really the operational costs and the cost of building is very, very much a marginal increase in over it quickly over time is more cost efficient to do this.

Chloe Jaco:

That’s right. Yeah. So we, we did do an analysis as part of the programming phase to kind of look at staffing and utilities and maintenance and general operating costs. And the bottom line is this newer facility would have pretty much 40% more capacity have better systems and, it would be a direct supervision model. And at the end of the day, it was like a less than a 6% increase in operating expenses. So it has a lot of advantages for the County.

Judge David Byrn:

You know, what’s funny, Chloe, I don’t know if you’ve seen this, but I’ve seen this. When I was on that state task force, when you start talking about, we need to change the way we’re doing things, or we need to have all of these wrap around services, a lot of times the political folks, their eyes will glaze over a little bit because what they’re hearing is, Oh, you want new programs, more money, more expense, but the reality is exactly what you said, Chloe, the efficiencies you gain with a new facility and the programs that really can be safe, alternatives to detention, it’s no more costly. And it really is a much more efficient use of the public knowledge. So it really does have value.

Eli Gage:

Judge, you were appointed by governor Matt blunt in 2008 as the circuit court judge, prior to that, you practiced law for 27 years in private practice, which I think is a little different ascent to becoming a circuit court judge. Correct?

Judge David Byrn:

Yes. Probably the more typical you would see would be prosecutor, public defender, or someone from the public sector, yes.

Eli Gage:

In that private practice, you focused primarily on real estate and construction. That was a big piece of your practice. And in talking to you a month or so ago, whenever it was, I really got the sense that you’re thoroughly enjoying this process.

Judge David Byrn:

I am, I really am. I loved being in private practice and dealing with construction. Maybe it’s the idea of problem solving or it’s just something I enjoy doing as a lawyer and working with fantastic clients, trying to build something as corny as that might sound, in many cases you’re building something that you can then see at the end. One of my clients, for example, bill all of the hangers where the B1 bombers are housed very close to us here in Kansas City. And so you get to see the fruits of your labor, so to speak. And yeah, this has been a lot of fun for me. I love the legal side of it. I love being a judge and yet to be involved in a construction project or a potential construction project that is going to benefit the citizens of Jackson County, the judges, the jurors, the detainees, the lawyers that has been a lot of fun. Eli, I really have enjoyed it.

Eli Gage:

It shows, good.

Judge David Byrn:

The only regret is we couldn’t do it in person, but again, Chloe and her team did such a great job. I feel like I know everybody very well from all the hours we’ve spent on the video conferences. So it’s gone great.

Eli Gage:

I feel like we’ll get back there. We’ll be out there to see you. You told me about that rib place that I’m not going to be able to pass you up.

Judge David Byrn:

Yeah. There’s some good steaks in Kansas City and some good places we can go absolutely come and visit.

Eli Gage:

So I know you love to travel, judge. I know that’s a passion for you besides family and your grandchildren. And one of the things I’ve kind of failed to point out is that you’re also an ordained minister.

Judge David Byrn:

True. True.

Eli Gage:

I thought was interesting.

Judge David Byrn:

I’ll tell you a funny story about that. Eli. My father was full-time minister and in our denomination, we have a lot of full-time ministers, but the majority are what we call self-sustaining ministers. So someone like myself who I don’t get paid for, what I do from a ministerial standpoint, nor does my wife, who is also an ordained minister. But years ago, I had a client, a woman who also went to church with me and she was in the hospital. I went to visit her and we were talking and nurse came in and the woman said, well, this is my attorney. Cause we were talking about some estate and some real estate things. And she said, and he’s also my minister and the nurse literally stopped cold and stepped back. And I thought her mouth was going to hit the floor. And she said, no, you can’t be a lawyer. And a minister was like, there’s a rule somewhere that says you can’t sue for that. So it’s an interesting combination I’ll grant you that, but at its core, at least from the standpoint of attorney, your goal is to help people try to make their lives and their situations better. And from a minister side, you’re doing the same thing. So it’s a good mix for me and my wife too.

Chloe Jaco:

How does the minister and judge work together? So that’s another evolution of it. Isn’t it?

Judge David Byrn:

I’ve been accused. Maybe that’s too harsh of a word, but I’ve been accused of preaching in court. And here’s what I mean by that. I don’t think it’s that bad. I’ve asked for a little more critique, but the idea is, for example, what I’ll say to defendants classic example, if I sent in someone I’ll say to a defendant, look, I know you’ve been sentenced. You’re going to the penitentiary. I get that it’s a long time, but you know, your life isn’t over. You can still make something of yourself. You can still become productive, not only in that setting, but someday you’re going to go out and be back in the community. So this is your chance to learn from your mistakes, make yourself a better person. And those that are around you, I will also tell people when they come to court for either the rendering of a verdict at the end of a trial or a sentencing before things happen, how I always have about half of the courtroom that are there with the victim and they want justice. The other half of the courtroom is they’re supporting the defendant and they want mercy. So I’ll routinely tell them that whatever happens in court today is going to end the legal process, but what’s happened doesn’t go away. You still have to live with it. And you still have to find a way in your life to come to grips with whatever negative implications it has for you and try to learn from it. Don’t let it define you, try to find a way to have it improve your lot in life, whatever that might be. So maybe that’s preaching to them. But that also seems like common sense as well.

Eli Gage:

Well, I think you are a great shepherd of the citizens of Jackson County.

Judge David Byrn:

Well, thank you. That’s kind. I appreciate it.

Eli Gage:

They’re lucky. So tell me with your passion for travel. Chloe mentioned that you are planning a trip to Florida. Have you, have you, have you been on a plane? Have you done any travel

Judge David Byrn:

Since COVID? Yes. I have a daughter that lives in Florida. Who’s a physician there. So as much as I love her, we also have a two year old grandson. So that probably drives this narrative a little bit. We were down there in late July. The airplane was about half full Atlanta. Airport was as, as you will ever see it still a lot of people, but for Atlanta, it was pretty quiet. But between face mask and a face shield, we felt like we were, we were safe. We took necessary precautions. And we’ll see how, see how the rest of the rest of things pan out. We’re hoping to get down there for the holidays. We’ll, you know, everything’s kind of day by day right now, but our plan is to get down there for the holidays and hopefully next year, things will be back to normal and there can be a little bit more travel in the picture.

Eli Gage:

Amen. To that point, we have you been on the plane,

Chloe Jaco:

You know not since probably February. I’ve just, I’ve actually driven to some meetings that were a good distance, but no, I have not been on them.

Eli Gage:

Well, I’ll be honest. I, I jumped on the plane for the first time after this. I was sequestered in Florida from about March till kind of the middle of August. And honestly, I was scared to death to you’ll get on that airplane. And once I did it, it’s been kind of no looking back, because as you say, the airports are empty, they’re really taking it seriously. It’s safe. It feels safe to me sometimes safer than going to Safeway, quite frankly. And so I, you know, that has been encouraging for me because I don’t feel any trepidation of going to the airport, get on a flight now. And Chloe knows our business, you know, is, is, is based on getting out and meeting our clients, seeing our clients. So I too hope the end of this is near. Yeah.

Judge David Byrn:

Without meaning to malign the airlines because Eli you’re right. I think they’ve done a good job with this. I jokingly said to my wife that for the first time in a long time, getting on an airplane may be one of the cleanest and most sanitary places to be historically, perhaps not true. So they’ve taken it seriously. And I think they’ve done a pretty good job.

Eli Gage:

Yeah. One of the things that was interesting to me, the first time I got on was they finally, they are handing you a, an aseptic white or whatever the thing is. It’s a pretty hefty wipe if you want to call it that. And so they’ve got these people cleaning the planes and they send you a text, we’ve cleaned your plane. Thank you. And then everybody gets on and you look around and everybody’s scrubbing everything down. And I’m think this is like crowdsourcing for cleaning the airlines.

Judge David Byrn:

That’s true. And as you said, the wipes are good size. Normally they give you something that’s about the size of a cocktail napkin. So you can, you can do a lot of cleaning with them.

Eli Gage:

Everybody’s hard at it.

Judge David Byrn:

That’s true. And I don’t know about you Eli. I noticed that everybody was wearing their mask. And there were a fair amount that had a mask and a face shield. So people are taking it seriously, at least in that setting, which is good.

Eli Gage:

Yeah. So I would, I guess I would say to all our listeners, if you’re, if you need to get on an airplane, don’t, you know, don’t be scared.

Chloe Jaco:

We’re talking about what all we’re going through now and having to do to operate. And so, and we’ve talked about this as a group and of course, we’re not sure what the answer is, but what’s going to continue on into the future or how things will change. And having the divider shields or wearing a mask, like how many practices that we have going now, do we see maybe continuing indefinitely or for a few years? And I think we’ve been trying to figure that out. I don’t know, judge, I know we’ve talked about this a little bit about this two days ago. What are some of your thoughts on that?

Judge David Byrn:

You know, the funny thing about masks is if you think about it, we probably should have been doing it long time, especially in the winter, if you’re sick or something like that, it makes perfect sense. It just seems sometimes that we are resistant because we’re told we really have to, as opposed to choosing to that’s a whole other topic. But I think going forward, you know, my view would be, we’re probably looking at some of the restrictions or the precautions, if you will, Chloe, that you’re talking about through next year. I wouldn’t see a huge move away from that. At least until the middle of next year and probably most of next year. So if you’re in trial and witnesses, testifying with a mask, you have more difficulty of hearing, but maybe the bigger issue is you can’t see their face. I mean, how many times have all of us encountered someone and you look and you think they’re smiling at you, but you’re not really sure. So from a witness standpoint, if they don’t, if they have a mask on that creates an issue. So part of the reason, then we look at plexiglass, maybe the visors, something like that to try to accommodate for the needs of trials and interaction with people, but to do it safely. You know, an interesting concept I’ve heard about that is referred to as hoteling workstations. The idea is with everybody working remotely, for example, from a court standpoint, we have a lot of people that are working remotely. So the discussion is do they need to come back? Can they work remotely? Do we create a workstation that is going to be shared, perhaps Chloe by you and me and we’re working different days in the facility, how do you do that? And all of that also encompasses making the process user-friendly. One of the things I mentioned to you in the past Chloe, is if you think about it, everybody that comes to court or that’s involved in court is typically at a high stress, high anxiety level. They don’t want to be there. They’re not there because things are going well in their life. There’s a problem, and they’re in court to fix it or solve it or resolve it. So I think we have to find ways to lower the temperature of the proceedings. Some of that is what a judge can do in terms of how we handle cases. Some of it is how our staff does, but a lot of it is the environmental things, Chloe, that I know you’ve looked at a lot and CGL does in the planning process of how do you make a facility for lack of a better description, a more comforting facility, and still meet the security needs that you have to have and do the business that has to be done within that facility. So it’s kind of a molding of those two.

Chloe Jaco:

Well, it’s just making me reflect. One of our key programming drivers that we had was creating the tone, setting the environment that we want from people and people being in custody, staff, public visitors, anybody in the facility from the minute they walk in the door through every part of the building. And if you’re in custody, even as you release, but part of the thing about setting the tone is what is the expectation, even from a health standard perspective now coming out of the current situation. So that is interesting, if the expectation is that you have a face covering or, you know, take a temperature at the door or whatever that is. And so that’s just part of that. Yeah, more nuances to add to that.

Judge David Byrn:

Yeah a lot of nuances, but maybe one of the simplistic is the planning and the space. I mean, with the existing building here and throughout the country, the space is what it is. In many cases, it’s really hard to modify. And as we talked earlier, how do you conduct a jury trial or, you know, in my courtroom, it’s beautiful, it’s large. It would probably fit someone’s image of the traditional courtroom. But with social distancing, I can get 20, maybe 22 people in there. So by the time you take myself and my staff, my court reporter, two attorneys, a defendant, and a jury, you’ve taken up all that space. So the space utilization is something we’ve got to look at, but going forward for courts that are looking toward what is a courthouse of the future. I think the idea of sharing courtrooms, or once again, Eli, the word of flexibility and adaptability is huge. You just have to consider those things going forward in the impact of that, I think is going to be probably even more dramatic than we know right now.

Eli Gage:

Agreed. Well, judge, I want to be respectful of your time. I want to really say thank you for joining us. It means a lot you would get on. Chloe, thank you for everything.

Chloe Jaco:

Ya, thank you.

Judge David Byrn:

And I will say again, thanks to CGL, Eli, Chloe, your entire team has been fantastic, great to work with and really done an amazing job under very unique circumstances that we hope don’t get repeated, right?

Eli Gage:

My dad told me early on hire a lot of good people around you and Eli all you’ll have to do is podcast.

Chloe Jaco:

And he was right. This is what i tell my kids, Eli. That we do know what we’re saying, right?

Eli Gage:

It’s true. I mean, I’ll brag on the CGL people like I always do, but when we started this company, what was it? I guess it was about eight years ago, we rolled up judge about seven different companies. And the idea that I had at the time was to bring the best and the brightest together to create a facility services company that encompassed not only the upfront, but all, you know, through the whole spectrum of the whole 360 degrees of justice. And my time at correctional news, I got to meet all those people. And so I knew where they were and I went out and rounded them all up and added CGL to their name. So it’s been a lot of fun in that. It makes my job super easy. And I go into these facilities from the upfront planning work that we do to the maintenance, I’ve visited a lot of jails, prisons and courthouses, and I always walk out, I go, God, it just, it makes me so proud. And I know that sounds corny, but it’s true. I’ve walked out of some of the worst prisons in Virginia where my maintenance guys are in there during COVID and I just kind of go to myself, you know, how did we get that lucky to get this many people that are so dedicated to what we’re doing. And it’s a, it’s a real pleasure to work here, so.

Judge David Byrn:

It’s a good team.

Eli Gage:

Well, thanks everybody for listening to our podcast today, you can find this and the other episodes of the 360 justice podcast on all the standard podcast platforms, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, and Spotify, or visit us at cglcompanies.com/podcast. If you have any ideas for future topics, please reach out to us and let us know your thoughts. Thanks again.

Voice Over:

Thanks for listening to the 360 Justice podcast to see today’s show notes and relevant resources related to today’s topic, or to make suggestions on future topics and guests for our show, visit our podcast page at www.cglcompanies.com.