Building Strong Teams with Dr. Laurel Harry: How Unit Management Shapes Pennsylvania’s Corrections System

Gary: Hello, everyone and welcome to CGL 360 justice podcast. I’m your host Gary Mohr and I feel very fortunate today to be speaking to our guest Dr. Laurel Harry, secretary of the Pennsylvania Department of Corrections and our guest has a variety of experiences in her 25 years of experience in the system, including being a drug and alcohol treatment specialist and being a unit manager multiple times.

And we’re going to spend a lot of time, Laurel, talking about unit management. She served as a classification program manager. Served as a deputy superintendent, served as superintendent at Camp Hill where she was recognized as warden of the year in Pennsylvania. Served as Western regional deputy secretary. Welcome Dr. Harry.

Laurel: Thank you so much. Happy to be here.

Gary: I skimmed over a number of your experiences pretty briefly. Is there anything else you’d like to expand regarding yourself?

Laurel: No, I don’t think so. I think you hit it all.

Gary: Well, I had the opportunity, Laurel, to, first of all, visit you in your office. I believe you were acting secretary at the time, prior to your confirmation as you launched a master planning project for the state system, looking into the future of Pennsylvania and following that meeting I was very fortunate to get a chance to visit your maximum security facility at Huntington, a prison that was initially constructed in the 1800s is a maximum security prison and is a prison that we would never design today, but what I witnessed there was a remarkable model of unit management and great operational [00:02:00] practices and a very productive prison, maximum security the inmates were out of their cells, they hardly paid attention to us at all as we were walking through and they were, they were very productive.

And as I recall, moving from one period to the next, to programs and recreation, all with an underpinning of control with unit management. And it was at that time that I said, somehow we’ve got to lift up the state of Pennsylvania and the practice of unit management for national attention. And that’s, I think, why we’re here today. So, we appreciate it. And could you just give us an overview of how unit management was started in Pennsylvania?

Laurel: Sure and thank you for the kudos for SCI Huntington.

They do a great job and they really model a lot of what we are doing in our other facilities too. So, yeah, happy to discuss unit management, because we do feel that it’s a very successful concept in the Pennsylvania [00:03:00] Department of Corrections. I guess I’ll first talk about, you had mentioned I worked at SCI Camp Hill and sadly, we had an event in 1989, the SCI Camp Hill riots. And that major disturbance changed the Pennsylvania Department of Corrections in so many ways to include, we got more funding, we didn’t have specialized teams, we had Pennsylvania State Police respond and so forth. Fortunately, no deaths from that incident, but just a significant incident in our history.

But I tie that into unit management because it was shortly thereafter where the concept of unit management was kind of being introduced. Obviously, it was introduced in the Bureau of prisons and then we caught on to that and said, you know, what? They wanted to make Camp Hill a diagnostic and classification center for all male offenders coming into Pennsylvania.

They started to. It was a good time because they were [00:04:00] rebuilding the facility and of course, doing far more containment. The physical plan of the facility was changing. And so, the concept of unit management started back in the 90s. And it was a good opportunity because it was seen as a way to manage folks in the system better in smaller areas under the leadership of a unit manager who potentially would have those security and treatment experience and we started in the older facilities and while it was gaining traction in the older facilities, I was told that we were also building prisons as many people were in the 90s and the new prototypical institutions really lent themselves to this concept and the housing unit structure.

And so it really ended up. Again, taking off in our prototypical facilities as well, wasn’t without growing pains, as, you know, with any initiative, and they really worked hard to, iron out the wrinkles and get things smoothed [00:05:00] out. There were folks I remember when I came on, which was in the late 90s. I remember folks saying, oh, yeah, people thought unit management was just a fad and initiative that would kind of go away like some do.

But yeah, it really took off in the department. And we really saw it as a way to really manage our folks better and build teams around that. And I’m sure we’ll talk a little bit about that as well. But it certainly here we are. Years and years later, and it is alive and well, and and working very well in our department to the point where we also added an administrative position to oversee unit managers.

We have a major of unit management position as well. So, we found a need to bridge that gap between. The unit management teams and having a voice up to the administration. So, yeah, it’s been a very, very productive concept for us. That’s worked very well.

Gary: Couple of comments 1 at Huntington. I was impressed that literally your major of [00:06:00] unit management was in uniform just like the major of operations and that really, that sent a message of how important unit management was, in my opinion, and I remember you talked about, you know, sometimes good things come out of tragedies like the Camp Hill riot.

But you mentioned the Federal Bureau of Prisons and I’ll mention Roy, maybe a little later, Roy Gerard is a prison warden in his own mind, designed. Unit management because he looked out in 1966 upon his prison, and it was a youthful offenders prison, you know, 17 to 26 year old young men who like to fight, right? And Roy looked out and he said, The inmates are controlling the prison, they fight we respond they fight we respond. And exactly, you know what you had talked about was putting someone in charge of a smaller portion of the prison to be responsible for both [00:07:00] staff and the inmates there, so I’ll lift Roy’s name up maybe one more time I do a lot of traveling and I talked to a lot of unit managers who have never heard of Roy Gerard.

So I’ll probably raise that one more time. And those that know me would be disappointed if I didn’t. So, Laurel, you were a unit manager at 3 different facilities, I think, can you talk about how that role as a unit manager really help prepare you for your upward journey in your career?

Laurel: Yes, absolutely. I worked at three different facilities.

The first facility, I was actually an acting unit manager because we only had two, it was a small facility, 500 inmates, so two unit managers. And the one I was serving as an acting unit manager, he was in the military, so he got deployed. So it was a great experience because I was only a few years into being a department employee.

I had only been in the, well, let’s say, I don’t know, maybe three, three years or so, maybe two, and then he got [00:08:00] deployed. So they made me an acting unit manager. And I think just seeing it at a smaller facility, at smaller facilities you tend to wear more hats sometimes. The bigger facilities, more clearly defined roles.

So unit managers were really go to positions, especially at the smaller facility. And so I really was able, I was a drug and alcohol treatment supervisor, I’m still doing those duties as well, but overseeing unit management things. So I think it was a good experience because we were also, although this wasn’t good, we were closing.

They were closing our facility and we were all moving to a new facility and I really had to dig in because back then we had to select which inmates were going to transfer to this facility. We have a whole new system to do that now. But, of course, we only had 500 inmates. So, they kind of relied on the unit managers to look at the parole dockets and who was paroling soon and long term offenders and what regions different folks were from so it was a good [00:09:00] experience because a lot of the administrate administration had moved to the new prison, but they kept me behind.

And I just remember feeling like, okay, people are coming to me. They need some answers and questions because I was kind of the go to. As that closure was occurring, so it just gave me a good, broad experience, especially with closing, but also in just understanding unit management and starting at a smaller facility.

So, then, as I mentioned, we, we all transferred to a new facility and completely opposite. I ended up getting a permanent unit manager position there, and it was just chaotic. Okay. Brand new facility. You’re starting up. I don’t know if you’ve ever had to start up a facility, but, you know. Yeah, you know how just the growing pains of developing policies and procedures and you have to handle every issue.

And so those beginning years are very stressful and challenging for folks trying to open a facility. So. One thing I will say is we had a lot of new [00:10:00] staff. They closed 2 institutions and the majority of them transferred to the new facility, but not everyone. So we hired a lot of new officers, lots and lots of new counselors.

So, in that role, I really had to dig in and learn the counselor role, because I had to teach new staff about their job duties. And, of course. We had some officers who transferred and then we had brand new officers. So you’re also teaching them just corrections and some of their roles and responsibilities.

So, yeah, completely night and day kind of experience. Once I really was a permanent unit manager. And then at the 3rd facility, I ended up just laterally transferring to another facility as a unit manager. And that facility was one that was, as I mentioned, was built in the early 90s. And so I arrived there roughly 10 years after they had been built at very established staff knew their roles.

The officers, the teams were kind of well [00:11:00] defined. So I was really able to learn how to be a manager at that facility and really Be able to address things like, you know, inmate sentences and, you know, all those things that really it prepares you for. And just as far as preparing me for upward mobility, I think the unit manager position is just so pivotal and critical to overall operations.

They are the leaders on the ground. You have to learn policy, procedure, inmate sentencing things, commissary, laundry issues, work, employment issues. So you’re really dealing with so many other departments and it really, , brings you out of that little, circle you were in before. Like I was in drug and alcohol and, you know, I’m running my drug and alcohol groups and that was my little world.

But when you become a unit manager, you have, you know, A community within a community, you’re running your own community on your housing unit, and you want your housing unit to be the best. And you want your teams to be the best. And, you know, it really made [00:12:00] me a better leader because I got just such a great exposure to other areas and So, yeah, to see all 3 areas and the differences as in the same role, but the different experiences that I had, but all equally beneficial to certainly my growth and professional development,

Gary: you know, Roy Gerard always referred to unit managers as mini wardens because of the responsibility for both staff as well as those confined and it’s really true and I, and I’ve got a quick question Story of mine at the young age of 33, I was appointed to open up, activate a new 2000 bed prison in Ohio.

And it was the 1st. Prison new prison that was fully unit managed designed. And designed to be, and I will tell you that had I not had. 5 unit managers and 5 units. I [00:13:00] would have failed because they had tremendous resources, and quite frankly, they were bold enough to tell me when I was wrong because they believed they were many wardens.

But but that really honestly saved me as, as we activated this very, very large, brand new prison, or I probably wouldn’t be setting here today. Lauren, to be honest. though. So, Laura, you talked about having a major of unit management in the facilities were there other changes that have evolved since unit management started in Pennsylvania?

Laurel: Oh, absolutely. And I think for me, I saw the biggest change when we were going through our mental health initiatives. So we started like everyone else did with, you know, a unit manager, corrections officers, a unit clerk and counselors, and then really starting to see that blend of treatment and security.

And I will say, I [00:14:00] think that’s 1 of the biggest benefits that I’ve seen of unit management, truly trying to break down that divide between treatment and security, because we’re all on the same team. But depending on the track, you come up, people kind of get siloed onto those different tracks, but I think during our mental health initiatives, which were about 10 years ago, we really saw the unit management concept kind of expanding.

And I think you saw some of this at Huntington. So what we did was we identified certain prisons to. Treats and house seriously mentally ill inmates. And so we develop strong teams around that. We added more psychology staff to our overall compliment, but we move those psychology staff to our specialized housing units.

Their offices are on the housing unit. They never were before, but they were on the housing units. They’re in our restrictive housing units. We see it a lot. A lot of growth with our specialized housing units, because those, [00:15:00] as you know, are some of the populations that can be more challenging, require more attention, need more staff to help address their issues and so having their offices on the unit.

Hugely important. You know, we have a psychiatric review team where the psychiatrist comes down. We have a team around that the unit team, the unit managers, counselors officers, they are all sitting in on these meetings. They sit in when we have interviews with inmates for parole and all those things.

They’re really a part of the team. We added psych nurses and the nurses became part of that unit management team. We have social workers and they became part of that team. So I just feel like we really added a lot Folks to be like, Hey, we’re, we are a big team here. You all play a specific role. It’s kinda like a big puzzle.

Each person has their piece. Mm-Hmm, . And then it all fits together. And of course, you know, we’re trying to address the needs of our [00:16:00] population so that when they leave, they are leaving better than when they came into our system. So they all have a voice. I think that’s something that’s been beneficial.

Every single person on the team. As a voice in the unit management team, and I remember sitting in meetings, especially dealing with, you know, problematic folks, or whether it’s a behavioral issue, a mental health issue, everybody’s giving their perspective. So, the officers will say, well, when they’re on the unit, I see this.

And then the psychiatrist or psychology staff will say, well, I’ve noticed this. So everyone has a voice at the table and they all feel like they’re contributing to the overall mission and really invested. I see people being more invested in the folks on their unit, because they know them, they know their issues and they know how they can best help and provide that feedback.

So, yeah, I do think, though. Our mental health initiatives really, really elevated what we’ve been able to do with our unit management.

Gary: Yeah, I [00:17:00] will, I will tell you, and it’s an informed engagement because your staff are living literally on the unit. I as I said I was at Huntington and I don’t, I can’t remember how many high, how many tiers high that facility has.

I think it’s like 4 or 5 tiers at least. And I’m walking on the bottom tier in a cell. Well, you talked about staffing and offices. Well, an office was a cell, and we had a, you had a master’s level mental health professional that was engaged with and offender. During the time and and walked out and was right in the middle of the cell block.

And I thought to myself, this is really this is truly unit management because it’s 1 thing to be involved in committees. But it’s another thing to be involved in committees and decision making when you see the people every day and your unit teams are seeing the people every day and the population knows [00:18:00] that.

And I, I kind of think, Laurel, that that really helps control behavior. If, if the parole board recommendations kind of start at the unit level and permeate up through the, through the offices to the warden you know, I think they recognize the importance that that unit team has on their life. And I think the families do too.

The families of the inmates realize, you know, behave, you know, don’t, we don’t want to hear from the unit manager. We don’t want to hear that you were not recommended because of behavior. So I was, it was a remarkable piece. You’ve talked about some best practices already. Are there other best practices you’d like to add?

Laurel: Yeah, I probably should have added to we really see some best practices because of this team concept around our hard to place folks, folks who have significant mental health issues, medical issues, maybe violent offenses. We have an all hands [00:19:00] on deck approach and we’re seeing more and more hard to place folks where maybe they’ve burned some bridges, maybe they don’t have family out on the street and, you know, we’re calling around.

Especially with medical and mental health, it’s difficult to find appropriate placements for them when they’re paroling or maxing out. And I’ve just seen tremendous work around getting everybody together. Oh, I tried this. Oh, have you tried calling this place? And, you know, they know the individuals needs and so they know what environment they’re going to need when they get out.

So. We’ve seen a lot of work around our hard to place folks, and I think that’s really important. And I just think we’ve also done a lot of specialized training for these units, especially our specialized units around unit management. They’re attending training to really help them know the needs of the population that they’re dealing with.

So. The training piece has been really critical for our teams, [00:20:00] because you can see the clear difference in the specialized units, because they have that additional training. They definitely are invested, not the general population. They aren’t because they are as well. You tend to see it more because they’re involved in more of the, you know, psychiatric review team meetings and just the issues around some of those folks.

But it’s the same with gang inmates. For example, on a housing unit, you see the officers providing that feedback back to the unit team. Like, hey, in the evening, I see this guy hanging around whomever or. Or he’s doing well and he’s not hanging around. So their feedback is just really important and it’s valuable and they can really serve as role models and, and I think mentors to our incarcerated population.

, and you probably did too as a warden, but I often got request slips from inmates that would say, Hey, I just want you to know how much officer so and so helped me when my mother died [00:21:00] or. When I was going through a difficult time, or I got some kind of bad news and it was just so great to have them there.

And that is true unit management. It’s not just someone overseeing a group of inmates on the unit and making sure they it’s investing in their well being. And like you said, making sure that we keep violence down by talking to them and understanding what their issues are. And. Yeah, I think that’s definitely a best practice that I’ve seen.

Gary: Yeah, staff seem to wrap around a mission of the unit. And I think where I’ve seen. Facilities that did not have unit management, it was much more of an independent focus and staff felt they’re on their own. And I think with the team unit team management that you’ve put together, it’s really.

It’s given staff support at a time where staffing is, is like our number 1

Elena: issue.

Gary: Yes. And,

Yes, very important. So [00:22:00] tell us a little bit about your efforts regarding succession planning. Now that you’re the secretary and how this may relate to unit management.

Laurel: So, I think we both brought up recruitment and retention issues, as you know, and that’s a nationwide issue.

And I know that’s a big focus, and it’s a big focus for us, but I’ve really said that if we don’t also focus on succession planning efforts and investing in the future leaders of our correctional agencies, you know, it’s going to create an additional issue down the road. And we’re seeing more and more staff promote with less experience and younger.

And so we really have to make sure that we’re investing in our future leaders because they are the ones who will be continuing these concepts and initiatives. And so it’s just been something that I’ve been extremely passionate about my whole career, quite frankly, and mentoring and, and making sure that we provide people with the right opportunities.

But it is a big focus of my [00:23:00] administration to the point where. I do quarterly mentoring moments with our leadership to include unit managers, lieutenants, captains, our management team. I want to give them kind of like some, some tips and advice and different topics that we choose on really leadership and, you know, how to be better leaders and different things to focus on.

Because I think that’s. It’s just so important. And we do, we have several leadership programs that we can put folks into, and many of them are unit managers, because we see those middle managers, unit managers, lieutenants, captains, they are on the ground folks, the day to day operations leading our teams and our staff.

And so I think it’s so important to invest in them. And so we have a correctional leadership development program. We have a leadership development Institute, which is a Commonwealth. So folks from other Commonwealth agencies can be nominated [00:24:00] for that. We have an emerging leadership program in our Commonwealth and and then just the mentoring.

We’ve really enhanced our mentoring because of recruitment and retention issues, but there’s obviously, Multiple benefits to mentoring, because it also helps with succession planning. So, yeah, I just see this role is real, real critical in our agency. And we see a lot of unit managers being ready to step up into those major of unit management, administrative positions, program manager positions, and then they’re going to end up being deputy superintendents.

So, yeah, it’s succession planning. It’s been really key. And the unit manager role is certainly one that we see often that comes up in these leadership programs because we want to make sure we’re developing them.

Gary: Laurel, I, this is was not a scripted question, but let me just you raised the issue of staff training and I observed at Huntington the most.

[00:25:00] Organized structured field training officer program that lasts a year for, for the correctional staff that I’ve seen in the country. It really truly is. And as I recall, I, again, I wasn’t prepared to ask this question, but. I remember like 3 sets of notebooks where a sergeant would go around and, and work with a new officer within this structured notebook that had specific activities and learning objectives throughout the entire 1st year.

And I, I don’t know whether you’d like to talk about that, but quite frankly, I’ve not seen anything quite like that in the country.

Laurel: Oh, well, thank you for that. It’s been a highly successful structured program for us. So, yes, they go to basic training, which is 5 weeks. And then when they get back, they have the rest of their year long on the job training program, and it’s broken up into phases.

So, when you talked about the objectives, depending on what [00:26:00] phase you’re in, you have. to certain benchmarks. We test every trainee at the end of every phase. We’re actually in the process of revamping some of those to include standardized objectives as well as institutional objectives for each facility.

But yes, we have training sergeants that go around and meet with our corrections officer trainees. We have training lieutenants that oversee the training division. And again, key, key roles in our facility because they are preparing the future correctional professionals. And so, yeah, we take our training program very seriously.

, I mean, we’ve made some modifications, but it’s been quite some time that we’ve utilize this system and we found that , it’s worked very well for us.

Gary: Well, Laura, let me just say that you, you hit my curveball question out of the park. I appreciate that. And I think as we think about retaining our staff all over this country, whether it be in jails or, or [00:27:00] prisons engaging those new employees and ensuring they feel confident in what they’re doing is such an important part of that.

And I was really impressed with what you were doing.

Laurel: Thanks. If I could just add about when I talked about mentoring, we specifically when we lowered our hiring age from 21 to 18 for corrections officers, we sent out an additional guidelines for mentoring because those training sergeants and training lieutenants, we really need them to mentor all not just under 21.

we need them to mentor all of our. C. O. T. S. Because that 1st year, as you know, is very critical. You know, somebody’s coming in. It’s a challenging environment. We really want to make sure that we have an all hands on deck approach and that they feel supported and that they have folks that they can turn to.

So, yeah, mentoring has been a big, big part of our training initiatives for our C. O. T. S.

Gary: Laurel, I know you and I know that you have a passion for staff wellness, [00:28:00] and I want to give you an opportunity to talk a little bit about as the secretary of the agency, your, view and vision and literally passion for staff wellness.

Laurel: Thank you. Yes, it’s something that I think is really a nationwide topic. And if I’m being honest, it’s something that we never did. Fully very well, we’d start something and it would kind of fizzle out. And so when I came in as secretary, I definitely wanted to do something more strategic, methodical, really.

Thinking through how can we have a lasting staff wellness program and not just, oh, we’re doing staff wellness and we have a few things in place. We have already had several things in place. We have critical incidents, stress management teams. We do things around mental health awareness month and suicide prevention awareness month, along with our mental health initiatives.

And we do lots of good things. We have [00:29:00] facilities that do their own staff wellness symposiums, but we really wanted to kind of sit back, evaluate what we have, kind of put it all under the same umbrella, and then roll something out again, that’s going to be kind of lasting. So super excited because just last week we kicked off our first, 1st staff wellness summit, and we had every facility, every community corrections and also parole field services, identify staff wellness coordinators from each area, and they all came to the staff wellness summit.

We focused on the 8 dimensions of wellness. Educated folks talked about what each other is doing around wellness share best practices. It was just a great event, and it will certainly help to kick off the next rollout of some of our wellness initiatives because, as you know, Staff wellness means something different to each of us.

You know, some folks, physical wellness [00:30:00] is what they really focus on. Other people want occupational wellness and kind of learning and growth and mental, emotional, mental health well being. So there’s so many different aspects of it that you want to make sure that you’re hitting enough that someone feels like they can plug into a resource that will work for them.

And we know that everything doesn’t work for everyone. For example, I’m not a big fan of mindfulness. I don’t know why I probably can’t stay still that long. You know, I, I like activities that are more, you know, energetic and, you know, like I can do biking, yoga is not my thing. It’s too, you know, but some people love that.

So we have to provide options that everybody enjoys. And so we’re really excited about where we’re going. We will be bringing on a wellness coordinator, which we’ve never really had before a full time position. And so this will help us kind of kick off the next phase of this. So, yeah, I appreciate you asking, because it’s definitely something that’s near and dear to my heart and my [00:31:00] staff’s hearts.

And we really know that from a retention perspective, we have to, we have to look at, you know, what do our staff need and how can they feel best supported? But quite frankly, I think mentoring succession planning, I think that all plays a role in staff wellness, because folks want to . Feel like they have opportunities when they come into our system and they want to advance.

And so we’re really excited about where we’re going with that. Some folks from the outside came and they, they were equally complimentary. Like, this is the summit is something new and something that we think will be hopefully very beneficial to us.

Gary: Laurel, I hope you don’t mind me, me saying this. But your comments remind me that leaders are leaders and as directors of jails and directors of state correctional systems as wardens not a long time.

And this is our time, right? It’s, it’s fleeting. Time is fleeting. And I think your points emphasize how significant [00:32:00] a leader can be. And the directional energy that can be created by a leader. In areas that are important to the leader and the whole wellness issue and your focus on unit management are examples of of you putting forth effort.

In a direction that you believe is right for the agency and recognizing that this is your time, right? And I commend you for stepping up and recognizing what’s important and putting that forward. I’m going to do a closing question here, and I guess we’ve covered quite a bit of area today focusing on unit management.

But as we see unit management spills over into so much of our operation, I would just give you an opportunity, Laurel to to talk about anything is important to you that we may have kind of left out in our, in our discussion today.

Laurel: Well, I think to sum up unit management and the [00:33:00] initiatives that we’re doing, it’s really promoted teamwork in our agency.

And as, you know, I think we all say that 1 thing we do really well in corrections is just diving in as a team. I always say we could never do what we do in corrections. If we didn’t have the great amazing folks doing the work day in and day out. Okay. Working together as a team, really blending, like I said, blending security and treatment and really saying, hey, we’re all on the same team here.

We all have the same goals both for staff and for the folks in our custody and just wanting to make sure that We obviously do the right thing and do the right thing by the folks that we manage in our system, because, as I said, we want them to go leave our system better than when they came in.

And when we are at our best as staff, whether it’s staff, wellness, succession, planning, unit management, teamwork, when we’re functioning best as a team, obviously, we’re functioning best for the [00:34:00] population that we serve. And that’s truly our mission and. Keeping the public safe and really working towards reentry.

We didn’t talk a lot about reentry, but I see just that team concept extending into our reentry efforts, vocational programming and doing a lot of different out of the box things with ensuring that we prepare the folks that are in our system for. Opportunities when they leave. So, yeah, we’re excited I have a great team and we have great staff in our department really doing great work.

So I appreciate the time and the opportunity to highlight some of the great things that we’re doing.

Gary: Well, you mentioned reentry and I did observe reentry doesn’t take place at the end of someone’s sentence. It’s right. The continuum of the sentence and Pennsylvania is doing a great job. Starting at the diagnostic center, identifying a program plan and having that reinforced by the unit team at the facilities, ensuring that people get into those programs [00:35:00] and are recognized for getting into those programs and and being promoted.

Through the system, so I think you’ve developed a continuum of re, entry through Pennsylvania. I want to just say this, Laurel 1st of all, thank you so much. so much. I’ve enjoyed this this has been an important session for me because 1 of my mentors, 1 of my 2 mentors in my career was Roy Gerard, who I had the opportunity to work with for a few days a month for 3 years.

And as I said before, 1966 as a warden, he developed this concept. And I will tell you, Laurel he passed away this past year. And I know that he would be smiling as he listened to you describe unit management, because it has really been it has been evolved, you’ve evolved the concept to ensure that.

Staff as well as those confined benefit from the, the whole unit [00:36:00] management team. So I want to thank you so much. Your friend and colleague, and you’ve benefited our profession with your comments today. So thank you very much.

Laurel: Oh, thank you so much for having me appreciate it.

Gary: And I’d like to thank everyone for listening to our podcast today.

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