Visionary Leadership: Director Heidi Washington on Embracing Reform and Innovation

Tony Turpin: [00:00:00] Hello everybody, and welcome to the 360 Justice Podcast.

I’m your host, Tony Turpin, joined by my colleague and mentor, Mr. Ken McGinnis. We’re really looking forward to speaking with you and today’s guest Director Heidi Washington. 

Director Washington has served as the director of the Michigan Department of Corrections since July, 2015. As director, she is responsible for overseeing the state’s prisons, probation and parole supervision, as well as the parole board and other administrative functions, in addition to managing a $1.9 billion budget prior to her appointment as director. She was warden of the Charles E Egler Reception and Guidance Center and the Dwayne l Waters Health Center. She also held positions as warden of the Robert Scott Correctional Facility and Administrative Assistant to the department’s Executive Bureau and director, where she [00:01:00] provided oversight for the legislative affairs office and represented the Michigan Department of Corrections before the legislature.Director Washington holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in political science from Michigan State University and a law degree from the Thomas M. Cooley Law School. She joined the department in 1998 as a legislative assistant after working for the legislature for several years. Director Washington serves on the executive committee for the Correctional Leaders Association, and In 2017, she was named Public Official of the year by Habitat for Humanity of Michigan, and in 2018 she was honored to receive the National Tom Clements Award for her vision and innovation in corrections.

Welcome, Director Washington. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with Ken and I. We appreciate this and we know that folks will be interested in the information [00:02:00] that you can provide and your insights in this correctional world that we all are involved in. 

Director Washington: Well, thank you for having me. I’m really excited to be here today. 

Tony Turpin: Thank you so much. So let’s dive right in. You began your career on the legislative side before entering corrections. How did that transition happen and what ultimately drew you into this field? 

Director Washington: Yeah. Well, you know what, Tony, that is a frequently asked question. I think, I feel like I go and talk to every new recruit class who’s on the, you know, verge of starting their career. And it’s a question that they always wanna ask the leader is, how did you end up here? because I think a lot of people when they start their careers in corrections, similar to myself, they don’t expect to still be there after 30 years.

So people always seem to be curious about the path. And, my path was a little different than a lot of people’s, as you said. I was working in the legislature as a legislative aide. I worked in the house and I [00:03:00] worked in the Senate. And, I was actually preparing to go to law school. So I always had an interest in crime and criminal justice.

I was always really interested in that, but. More on the prosecution side, right? So my mindset of, you know, basically how I grew up and what my experiences had been to that point, my mindset was on how to lock people up. And so I was gonna go to law school and be a prosecutor. That’s what I was going to do.

So I was working in the legislature and a friend of mine had come over to work in the Department of Corrections and she told me about an opportunity that existed here to come over and do legislative policy work. And so, I was already working in the legislature, so I had that skillset and those connections, and it was kind of a natural fit to come and do legislative work for the department.

And it was an area that I was interested in. So I came with the thought that I would just stay [00:04:00] here for three years while I went to law school. And then when I got out of law school, I was gonna go and help send people to prison. That’s what I was gonna do.

Tony Turpin: Absolutely.

Director Washington: And so, I came here and I started working and I started learning. And, you know, I think that my thinking started changing. Certainly my understanding evolved. My understanding of, of the whole system and of the people that touch the system, that certainly evolved. And voila, I finished law school and I never left and I’m still here.

Tony Turpin: I think that for many of us who have enjoyed a career in corrections, many felt that it was gonna be a transitional job. And once you get in and you really understand the purpose and the impact that you can have in a correctional facility and running as you do a Department of Corrections, it’s hard to walk away.

So, again, [00:05:00] thank you so much and your leadership has certainly been one to model. And so, Ken, how about a little follow up on that.

Ken McGinnis: You know, given the fact that most directors spend a vast majority of their time dealing with legislative issues, how has your prior experience influenced you and been beneficial to you as you attack a lot of the issues that end up in the legislative arena?

Director Washington: I certainly came to the job from a route you can say non-traditional, right? I came from the legislature here. So, I brought those experiences and certainly I came already with a great understanding of the importance of establishing relationships with policy makers.

and I think that’s really important. A lot of people who come to this position don’t have that experience. They come with other very good experience that I didn’t have. but then they have to, sort of grow into that. So for me, I think It has helped [00:06:00] me tremendously, because having good relationships with legislators is key to success in this position.

And so, just knowing the way the system works, understanding, you know, the mechanics of how it works, but then also understanding the political, the whole political side, which I think over the last few decades has become certainly much more intense. That has been really important and I’ve always approached the job.

You know, in terms of working with the legislature, in a very bipartisan way, no matter who I was working for. And I think that has been key as well, you know, to be responsive and transparent and communicative with everybody regardless of what side of the aisle they’re sitting on. and that has helped a lot.

We also have a great legislative team here who works really tirelessly on relationships. And now, a little different than Ken when you were here. Back then we didn’t have term [00:07:00] limits. Now we have term limits. So adding term limits makes this even more challenging because you have people sitting on budgets that literally, they were working in the community doing whatever their family business was. And now they’re sitting on your $2 billion budget and they’re only here for a short amount of time. So, you don’t have decades of experience learning the budget and learning the ins and outs of things. So I think they really rely on us to help guide them through that process.

And one of the keys to that for us is trying to get as many lawmakers into our facilities and interested in actually coming and seeing firsthand what it is that we do. So, me coming from that area, from the legislature has helped tremendously in being able to really, have a leg up in establishing those relationships.

Ken McGinnis: It’s such a rarity now of somebody sitting in your chair for more than a decade. As you well know, [00:08:00] the turnover is very high. And, you now have had an opportunity to watch and learn corrections from a different perspective, and that is a decade of experience in the, sitting in the director’s chair. What changes have you seen during your tenure? 

Director Washington: Oh, gosh. I feel like we could do an entire podcast series on that question alone. There’s been so many changes, here in our department. And I think when I took over as director in 2015. I had broad experience in the department, working outta the executive office.

But then I, as you know, I was warden on the male side and on the female side, and doing all of those types of things and becoming director. I had a good idea what I wanted my focus to be on. And it was really on investing heavily in, programming and education and skills training and, trying to change the culture around, helping people understand why those things were important.[00:09:00] 

And we’ve really worked hard at that. And I think that Michigan has emerged as a leader in those areas and that the results of that are evident in the success that we’re having. So that’s been a big change. Another big change, and something that I wanted to focus on was, being able to invest heavily in our facilities.

And when you’re trying to create success for people it includes all the people, right? All the people that come to our facilities, whether you’re living there, working there, whatever. And, we had kind of neglected a lot of our infrastructure because the funding wasn’t there. So really modernizing our facilities has been a big focus, putting a lot of investment in technology, both on the security side, but also just on the modernization.

We’re going through a massive overhaul and investment in case management, which is a multi-year investment that we’ve made. So there’s been so many changes that have happened. Investing in, wellness, [00:10:00] which I think, you know, that’s a huge one. It’s something that when I came into the job and, even in most of the early part of my tenure as director, as you know, wellness wasn’t something that was really talked about.

And, even though we all knew about the pressures and the stresses of this job and the consequences to our staff, it wasn’t something we felt comfortable talking about. So one of the things I think I’m super proud, most proud of, that we’ve accomplished and that has changed in this department, is the openness with which we talk about wellness and the importance of taking care of your mental health, and your physical health and your financial health.

We now have dedicated appropriation to our wellness unit. We just added two more full-time clinicians. So, we have a whole team of clinicians, chaplains and yes dogs that are dedicated to helping our staff get through the challenges that they face being in this, you know, being in this line of work.

So that’s another, [00:11:00] I think, really big change, and it’s been pretty remarkable to see how there was apprehension at first, but, you know, people are very trusting of the program and the benefits of it. So, so many, so many changes. a you know, on the field side, as you know. We oversee probation and parole here in Michigan.

I think we’re fortunate as director to have that. But we’ve moved from the refereeing model to the coaching model again, you know, a really a cultural change and how we look at what our role is, and that is to help people succeed. So we’re not here to wait for you to screw up. We’re here to help you, be involved in the things that will put you on the path to success.

And so, that’s been really transformative on the field side of our department. And I mean, I can go on and on about a zillion other things that have, that have happened. I guess aside from the wellness unit though, training. Training is something I think if you look at where we were back in 2015 and where we [00:12:00] are today, we, for the first time since way back when, when we had the DeMars Training Academy, which I think was actually condemned, Ken, I mean, they tore it down. The old training academy. We never had a training academy or a facility. And for years, years we brought our staff in and trained them at hotels. And, it, you know, it wasn’t the right message when you’re trying to build a team and, you know, trying to introduce people to a great career in corrections.

And, it just wasn’t the right message to send about, about the investment that we wanna make in staff. So we have now a state-of-the-art training academy that we acquired and then I guess, built that is beautiful and professional. We built a brand new lodge. We built a brand new shooting range.

We have everything we need there and staff from all around the state come there and feel really good about themselves and [00:13:00] about the department that they work for because of the investment that’s being made, their development. 

Tony Turpin: It’s interesting that these paradigm shifts in corrections and, and, Ken McGinnis was the director of, the department in Michigan from 91 to 2000 in that correct? Ken? 

Ken McGinnis: Yes. 

Tony Turpin: And I think you sat on the other side of that desk. Didn’t you direct her for an interview with one Ken McGinnis, several years back, for your employment in the Department of Corrections? Is that not correct?

Director Washington: That’s correct. 

Tony Turpin: Well, congratulations, Ken. You picked a good one. 

Ken McGinnis: Well, I think, the great thing about Michigan, among the many things that are great here, there’s a longstanding history of continuity in the Department of Corrections. Heidi isn’t the first director to have spent 10 years in that chair. And I think that that shows in all the improvements that have occurred during her tenure is if you have time to plan, [00:14:00] implement, and execute the kind of changes you want, you can really do some great things and Michigan’s enabled their directors to do that by letting them serve long enough to fulfill what they want to do. 

Tony Turpin: You mentioned a dog program for employees Training Academy, some very positive, proactive, initiatives that you’ve taken on as the director there. and, and staff is certainly a key challenge. But other than that, and then we’ll talk about staffing in just a few minutes, but what do you see, Director, as some of the challenges that you’re facing now with the Michigan Department of Corrections? 

Director Washington: There’s a lot of challenges. Going back to something Ken said really quickly, ’cause I think he is a hundred percent right, in terms of, our longevity of directors here in Michigan. And it is one of the things that I’m very grateful for the time in this position because it takes time to [00:15:00] implement new things and to make change and to. Make sure that the changes that you make become ingrained in the fabric of the associ–of the organization. And if you’re only here for, you know, two years, it’s almost impossible to do that.

And so having the opportunity to be here, like Ken said, has made a world of difference. So it’s significant challenges. Well, you know, Michigan is not unique in the category of challenges. I think that’s one of the things that’s so great about being involved with CLA, the organization that we’re all involved in, and even for me internationally, because what you learn is, no matter what your geography is, essentially we all have the same challenges.

When I think about the future, I think this continuing challenge of workforce and, of course, on top of mind is always correction officers and the challenges we face there. But [00:16:00] I think just workforce in general and future talent, being able to attract the talent that we need to run the modern Department of Corrections in the future is gonna become even more challenging.

So when you think of how we, how we run corrections today versus how we did, you know, 20 or 30 years ago, we’re very heavily focused on programming on the delivery of mental health, the delivery of physical health, all of these types of things, reentry, all of those things.

To be able to get the professionals that you need to do all of these jobs, it’s very challenging in a lot of areas of our state, particularly when you consider when we cited these prisons. We put them in areas that are, you know, very rural and where a lot of these professionals don’t exist. So I think one of the biggest challenges going into the future is workforce across the board.

And I would also say just on the topic of [00:17:00] workforce, it’s the changing workforce. And we see it all the time here, the multiple generations of people that we have working in workforce together. So you have these new folks coming in who are driven by different, as different set of values than people who may have been here for 20 plus years.

And so getting all of those people, you know, sort of, rowing in the same direction sometimes can be a little bit challenging. As one of my favorite legislators that I work with tells me when we talk about this topic, he says, Heidi, today people work to live. They don’t live to work. I think that’s a true statement. And, you know, when you look at our staffing challenges and the amount of overtime that people are having to work, it becomes a real issue for us.

So, and then that sort of, I think segues into another issue that we’ve seen here. and I think COVID had a big impact on this and as well, but it used to be that, you know, you’d [00:18:00] work 20, 20 years or more and hope that. You know, at some point you might have the opportunity to become like a warden, and now we see people promoting through the ranks so quickly.

I think one of the challenges that we have is getting them prepared to take the jobs because things are accelerating so, so fast. And so when we think about that, we really have to think about what we can do. To assist them. And so we’re, we’ve just, we’re just in the process of launching a brand new, leadership academy, which will, be leadership programming that takes somebody throughout their career in the department through four different stages, as they evolve, as emerging leaders to be able to prepare them better to go into these jobs.

Staffing and preparing future leaders is, you know, I think one of the most significant challenges that we have here. Of course we’re gonna continue to have the challenges of [00:19:00] contraband and all of those things, and then I think, funding, funding is always going to be a challenge because it’s not getting any cheaper.

I noticed, and I was gonna mention to you I probably need to update my bio our, our budget’s over $2 billion now. And , even though our population has shrunk significantly, our budget continues to climb. And so, financing this operation, and this is where it goes back to your other question about working with lawmakers becomes important.

It’s gonna be really critical to maintain good relationships because people need to understand the importance of prioritizing funding. So I think that’s going to be an increasingly big challenge in the future. 

Tony Turpin: Let me ask as far as retaining and retention, you are on the executive board of the Correctional Leaders Association, we’ve mentioned CLA, give us a little input of how that organization helps you develop plans for retention, retaining recruiting, managing, [00:20:00] employees, as a director. How do they help you? 

Director Washington: They helped tremendously. Being a director is, we’re a unique group of people, right?

There’s only 50 of us in the whole country. So that is our group of peers. And, the opportunity to get together to talk about our shared challenges and to learn from each other and to compare what’s happening here. Just this week I sent a message to my Midwest group in the Midwest region on this very topic of recruitment and retention, asking them, you know, a series of questions so I could sort of see where they were at on wages and benefits and things like that compared to where we’re at. So, being able to easily get information, to ask questions is critically important to learn from each other and not have to reinvent the wheel.

Like, I don’t wanna have to spend time, which is, you know, a precious commodity, trying to figure something out. If Anette Chamber Smith down in [00:21:00] Ohio, or Jared Hoy over in Wisconsin, or, you know, anybody anywhere has already done it and I can just pick up the phone and they will be right there to, to help me out.

There’s also recruitment and retention committee within CLA that meets regularly and any of the directors and even their staff can join it. And so that I think is, they’ve taken that sort of to another level by having like our recruitment people come on that call and other staff, because those are the folks that are out there doing the work. So it’s kind of broadened that network a little bit just in terms of getting access to information. 

Tony Turpin: Very good. We, we were talking about staff. One of the challenges for directors throughout the country, and always has been, idleness of inmates, and, how do you engage the inmate population into productive time so that when they do reenter, back into to the general public, how did they come out better? So Ken, [00:22:00] let’s talk about the vocational aspect of what’s going on. 

Ken McGinnis: Well, I think this kind of falls in line with what the director said earlier about the really shift in emphasis on programming and reentry activities. And I know she’s very proud of her Michigan vocational village, and I think it, our listeners would be very interested to hear about that concept and the basis of that and what the outcomes are of that program. 

Director Washington: Yeah. so vocational village, Michigan. We have three of them. And you know, Ken, you’re right up the street here in Michigan. I’m thinking we gotta get you to come visit our vocational village pretty soon. Anyway, it’s the first of its kind skilled trades training center inside of prison. And so, how it came about was really, I was drawing on my experience from working inside and being a warden in the state and understanding that we delivered vocational programs to inmates.

But, they were really things that we [00:23:00] needed them to do to help us run the prison. They weren’t really things that they wanted to do or that they would, would translate into a successful career for them when they got out. So they were things like custodial maintenance, and things like that.

And they only went to ’em for a couple of hours a day, a couple of days a week. So what the vocational village did was really, create a program that delivers in demand trades that are all state or nationally licensed or certified, to the population. So they have to apply to get in and then once they get in, they are transferred to the village. They all live in one community together so they get separated from the greater prison population. So they’re not going to the yard with everybody. They’re not going to the chow hall. They stay together and they put in a full day’s work.

So it’s really trying to simulate what, what it’s going to be like on the shop floor, you know, or wherever it is you’re going to be working and teaching them what an [00:24:00] employer expects of them. And, and then we have hired, we’ve expanded quite a bit because we now have, we have full-time job developers whose job it is to reach out to employers and bring employers into the program.

And that’s been phenomenal. We do a, every other week email blast, statewide to about 800 employers with everybody’s resumes, who’s coming out. Employers come on site, they do interviews. The hope is that everybody has a job before they leave prison. It’s just really been a phenomenal program that has been transformational and, we’ve had over half the states in the country have been to Michigan to visit the vocational village.

Some of the states are trying to replicate the vocational village in their state or their own version of it. So that’s pretty awesome. We have a, you know, super robust, vital Documents program. 99% of everybody who leaves prison in Michigan goes home with a state ID or driver’s license.

That in and of itself is a major accomplishment. [00:25:00] We have worked very hard at that. So that’s part of what happens with the vocational village as well. So it’s been a great program. We started with one, we expanded, and then we expanded again.

So it’s going very, very well. And we offer things like Michigan’s a manufacturing state, so it’s important to, , be training people in jobs that exist here in Michigan that they have a realistic opportunity to receive. And so, CNC machining Robotics, 3D printing, carpentry. We have cosmetology, we have welding.

I mean, there’s a whole list of programs that we’re offering. tree trimming line clearance. We have a partnership with DTE Energy and DTE Energy Foundation, which is an amazing program. They go right into the IBEW from that program. And the guys that come outta that program, they’re doing amazing and they’re, they’re just doing great work.

Ken McGinnis: Do you see a further expansion or are you at the cap of your capabilities there? 

Director Washington: Well, our focus is always going to be on quality, so [00:26:00] we’re not going to dilute the quality of our program in order to just say we’re expanding. So we have expanded, and I think as we expand, it’s probably more likely that we will expand our offerings at our current locations as opposed to building whole new vocational villages attached to other prisons.

Number one, because of the cost, but also because a big part of our program is in employer engagement. And, so geographically we wanna make sure that we remain accessible to employers to be able to come into our facilities and see firsthand and meet the students firsthand and have those interactions because it’s an important part of what we do.

People who are not familiar with prison find it a little intimidating. They’re apprehensive at first. And so getting them to, buy into the program and feel comfortable is important. And part of that is bringing them inside and [00:27:00] letting them see that these are just people, who are trying to do better for themselves.

And we are giving them state-of-the-art training and tools and technology to do that. And I will say on the subject of that, the programs that we offer and, the equipment and materials that we use are all State of the art and they are as good or better than what you would see when you go to any job site in the community and our employers have, have told us that. So that’s pretty awesome. 

Ken McGinnis: Is there application for this concept on the academic side also, or is it just strictly vocational? 

Director Washington: They have to have a GED, or a high school diploma to be able to get into the vocational village.

So if that’s what you’re asking, that’s like the minimum criteria. Some of these programs are pretty mathematics heavy, so we need to be able to make sure that they have the skills , like for the CNC machining, they’re doing their own programming and things like that, so they have to have the skills.

But the sort of companion piece to this [00:28:00] is that. Michigan also leads the nation in the delivery of post-secondary education inside prison. So we have more college partners here in Michigan than anywhere in the country. We have 13 Michigan colleges and universities that deliver onsite instruction in our facilities.

So we have these study halls where the incarcerated college students, they will come in and do study halls and help, the vocational village learners with maybe some of the skills that they might need a little brushing up on in order to be able , to successfully complete , the work that they have to do. So we do help them, in that regard. And now we have people that have done or are doing both programs, college and skills trades. 

Tony Turpin: That’s fantastic. And as we all know, one of the drivers to reduce recidivism is, people that are incarcerated or capable and have the skillset, whether it’s academically or vocationally to become employed, when they leave prison, their likelihood of returning is reduced.

And so those type [00:29:00] programs I think are critical for every system without a doubt. And a hat’s off to you and your team for seeing that, realizing that, that making people better is better for everybody. That’s fantastic. I’m gonna hit on a couple of things here and, and because you know, you’re also involved with ICPA, the International Corrections Association, and with your involvement with CLA, what are some of the trends?

And this is back to the population. What are some of the trends for your population there with inmate populations that you’re seeing, whether it’s yours, internally there in Michigan, or, when you travel and see other agencies or talk to other corrections professionals? 

Director Washington: Yeah. Trends in the population.

Well, I think here in Michigan we tend to have longer sentencing, so, we. Keep people longer. and we have truth in sentencing, so everybody serves their full minimum sentence here and when you sentence people for a long time and you keep ’em, they tend to get [00:30:00] older in your system.

So the aging population is a trend that everybody is, I think, dealing with. I certainly am paying close attention to it here. And, since you mentioned my work with ICPA, I’m president of the North American chapter and I’m on the board of the International ICPA and it’s something in our North American chapter that we’re talking about.

Just give you a little teaser. I think we’re gonna be working on a project, in the North American chapter focused around this very topic, which is how do we tackle the aging population within our facilities. So from the healthcare standpoint, from the infrastructure standpoint and, from the success, like making their time successful if they’re leaving or not.

So there’s a lot of components to the aging population and I mentioned the infrastructure piece of it. That’s a real big challenge as the population ages in our facilities because, as you know, the laws that we have to comply with, with regard [00:31:00] to access and ADA and all of these things put a lot of other layers of responsibility on top of us.

So we have to be prepared for that challenge. And, so I think that’s one of the trends in the population. you know, the drug epidemic that’s going on. The inflow of drugs into our facilities, and what that does, but the population itself, I was just talking just yesterday to our chief medical officer, about this topic and, about, the increase of people with substance use issues in our system.

And we’re talking about how we’re better now at diagnosing a lot of these things. , So, of course our numbers are going to be higher because we’re diagnosing them. We are, we’re better at it. But diagnosing and treating that population is a challenge. And, I don’t think it’s going away.

And then there’s obviously the drugs themselves are much more easily concealed now, so they’re easier to [00:32:00] smuggle, causing a lot more problems, frankly. So that’s just a couple of the populations that I think, going forward are gonna continue to be very challenging for us.

Ken McGinnis: During your tenure, you’ve seen a tremendous drop in. Total population. Yeah. In the department. compared to in the nineties, it was 47,000, I believe. And now you’re down in the low thirties.

Do you see that continuing to drop or is the length of stay kind of offsetting the intake numbers? 

Director Washington: So our high was actually at like 55,000 and now we’re at, 32,300 about, it’s a number that I watch, obviously constantly. So we’ve had a very measured, focused strategy to bring our population down and keep it down.

So now you’ve got it down, how do you keep it down? And that’s where all these interventions and things come into play. But Michigan’s kind of unique because we do have truth in sentencing. So when you look at our entire population as like a [00:33:00] pie. and then you break the pie down to understand who do we really have jurisdiction over?

And in my system, 85% of the people serving in this department of the 32,000 haven’t even gotten to their minimum sentence yet, or are lifers. So there is a small segment of the pie that on any given day, the parole board could have jurisdiction over. So it’s really important that we are doing everything we can, to get those people prepared to go home because if they don’t go home, that’s when the population goes up 

The second part of that is we are doing everything every day on the front end of the system on probation to make sure that we’re working with the bench, we’re educating the bench on alternatives to incarceration, that we’re maximizing community corrections, that we’re, leveraging all the diversion programs that we can so that we can try to control as much as we can who’s coming in the front door.

So, , we’ve got trying to [00:34:00] influence people being prepared to go out the door, but also trying to, , flow the stem on the front end. So, we work really hard at it, like very intentionally. I mean, we look at literally every parole violator that comes back in. We look at that case and say, what happened here?

Why wasn’t this person a success? What could we have done differently and what do we need to do differently, when they go out next time? So. I think we’re very intentional about it here. Because we don’t want our population to go up, we have a number of closed housing units all over the state.

We have a few thousand closed beds. And the truth is we don’t wanna open those because we just got done talking about a staffing problem, , so if we open ’em, we’ve gotta staff ’em. , so that’s sort of where we’re at , with our population. One other segment of a population that’s unique to Michigan, I think you are aware that, in Michigan you can be adjudicated adult as a juvenile, and so that population is on the rise.[00:35:00] 

So in Michigan, it seems very small, but today we have 28 juveniles. So these are 17, 16, 15, 14 year olds in our adult male system. Last year, the number was less than half of that. and so it is steadily climbing, which is quite concerning. 

Tony Turpin: It is interesting and, and that is a very challenging population from a management standpoint and the, the federal regulations that you have to follow as far as education and keeping separate and that kind of thing.

So it’s a very delicate and difficult population to manage it, especially if it’s on the rise. The one thing that I could say as we get toward the end is that I could ask questions and talk with you, Director Washington and Ken McGinnis all day long. And it’s a pleasure to have discussions about our corrections world.

But I wanna ask, as many may listen that are career employees or people that want to make corrections or career or [00:36:00] maybe undecided, words of encouragement from you. What do you say to the folks that are saying, where are we going? Why am I here? And, how important is it what I am doing?

Director Washington: Gosh, that, that’s a big question, Tony. I would want to tell them that, no matter what your role is in this department, you are an integral part of the department’s mission of public safety. We need everybody working together to ensure that, that we create public safety for the people of Michigan.

And that happens when we make prison time productive time that happens when we are positive role models and influencers and are helping people transform their lives. And, I think one of the biggest challenges we have, and one of the things we have to change is showing people the positive results of the work that they do.

They work oftentimes in a very negative environment where what they see is when people come back to prison [00:37:00] and have not done well, but we don’t do a good job of highlighting to our own staff or to the community the success that we’re having because the truth is, is more people leave here successful then don’t.

But yet what the focus is on is on the ones that don’t, so I think it would be encouraging for our staff to have more information about the fact that their influence is changing lives and how they show up for work every day and interact with people makes a difference.

And that even though they don’t know it in the moment, they could be the very catalyst for somebody’s transformation. And so I think we need to do a better job promoting that. Because I think a lot of the people who are coming into our department today are here because they see this as a career, that helps people, change their lives.

When I talk to staff I say, why did you get into the [00:38:00] department? And they say, I wanted to help people. And I think that, that’s great, but I think we wanna make sure that they see the results of that.

Tony Turpin: Wery encouraging words. Thank you. Ken, do you have any follow up?

Ken McGinnis: No, I think we covered some really important issues, from operational issues to legislative issues, to budgetary issues, to staffing issues, to programmatic issues. Again, I think it goes back to the real success that the directors had during her long tenure there. And we hope she stays for a long time. 

Tony Turpin: Absolutely. 

Director Washington: Thanks for hiring me, Ken. 

Tony Turpin: I was just gonna mention that. Absolutely. Director Washington, thank you so much. Your leadership, within the department itself and of course externally with the associations, what you bring to the table is fantastic and your leadership is always noticed.

And we thank you today for taking the time to speak with us and also give information to our listeners. It’s very helpful and we thank you so much. 

Director Washington: Well, thank you for having me. This has been [00:39:00] fun. I agree. I could talk with you both all day. And Tony, I’d love to have you come visit us here in Michigan.

Tony Turpin: Well, thank you so much and, I’ll certainly have to take you up on that offer and visit our good friend Mr. McGinnis in the process. Absolutely. Thank you everyone for listening to our podcast today. You can find this and other episodes on the standard podcast platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Amazon.

Or visit us at CGLCompanies.com/podcast. If you have suggestions for topics you would like to hear covered this season, or you’re interested in being a future guest on the 360 Justice Podcast, email us at podcast@cglcompanies.com. Thank you everyone, and thank you for listening. Have a great afternoon.