Creating a New Face of Justice for Maricopa County

Voice Over:

Welcome to the 360 Justice Podcast, where criminal justice leaders talk about how they are solving tough social infrastructure issues, like aging facilities, insufficient funding, inadequate staffing, and an ever-changing political climate. Here’s your host, Eli Gage.

Eli Gage:

Well, welcome everybody to the CGL 360 justice podcast. I’m your host Eli Gage. And I’m joined tonight with my cohost and subject matter expert. Bob Glass, the director of CGLs justice services division, and truly a nationally recognized consultant on all things, criminal justice. So welcome, Bob. Thanks for coming back.

Bob Glass:

Thank you, Eli.

Eli Gage:

And we’re really excited today to have Deputy Chief Brian Lee. And we’ve you go by Chief Lee, correct?

Brian Lee:

Yes, sir. That’s correct.

Eli Gage:

All right. So we’re really excited to have Chief Brian Lee of the Maricopa Sheriff’s office. Brian, you’ve been with the Maricopa County Sheriff’s office for over a decade, which is impressive.

Brian Lee:

Yeah. Actually 22 years. Now that I’ve been with the Sheriff’s office.

Eli Gage:

Yeah. And you started as the public information officer under Joe, Arpaio, correct?

Brian Lee:

That’s correct. That’s one of many, uh, exciting excitement, uh, five minutes that I’ve had in my career there. So that was definitely a notable one.

Eli Gage:

I want to come back to that, but you have an MBA. You’re a certified public manager. I think that was with Arizona state.

Brian Lee:

That’s correct.

Eli Gage:

You’re a certified jail manager through the AJA. You’re a certified correctional executive through the American Correctional Association.

Brian Lee:

That’s correct.

Eli Gage:

You’re a very busy man.

Brian Lee:

I try to be.

Eli Gage:

Not only that, but you’ve been serving as the project manager on the new jail, as well as the intake transfer and release facility.

Brian Lee:

That’s right. That’s been probably the biggest project I’ve had in my career over the last 23 years. And I think, uh, looking at Bob, I think we’ve worked on this project together for at least probably seven or eight years now. So I’ve been put on this project since very early on when I was promoted to deputy chief. So it’s one that I’m proud to have been able to see through to the end.

Bob Glass:

It’s almost eight years now.

Eli Gage:

Wow. Well, I want to come back to the project, but I got to ask you, um, Brian, I’m sitting here in Florida, Bob’s in Sacramento, California, Florida, Arizona. How, how are things in Phoenix from a, I guess, a COVID standpoint in your opinion?

Brian Lee:

Well, I, I think everybody can agree that, uh, you know, these are very difficult times for everybody around the world and, um, everybody’s finding challenges to just getting the day to day operations done, but honestly, speaking in Phoenix, Arizona at the current time, we are getting hit really hard with this, uh, this COVID situation here. As a matter of fact, Phoenix, Arizona, was the number one affected area in the world as of last week. And we are seeing, um, an astronomical amount of new cases daily, and that has, I’m not going to lie. That has taken quite a toll on us being able to conduct normal operations in the jail system at Maricopa County. So it’s been definitely very challenging, and it’s, uh, it’s been especially challenging while we’re trying to roll out almost a complete overhaul of our operations in Maricopa County and how we run our jail systems and kind of this culture shift that we’ve gone to and the way that we do things differently from how we’ve done them for past generations. So it has been quite a challenge. We have some amazing employees at the Sheriff’s office. We’ve got some amazing folks on our team in this project, in this jail transition. Um, we’ve got a lot of support from our Sheriff and the command staff, and, um, we’ve been lucky.

Brian Lee:

We have the support of other criminal justice stakeholders in Maricopa County that have kind of made this a very successful project. And that’s very helpful when you’re running into challenges like we are right now, you know, delivering, uh, folks to courts, trying to determine who stays in jail, how we operate and stuff. So it is it’s, it’s been quite a challenge as I’m sure it has been for many other places across the country and the world.

Eli Gage:

So has that ramped up in the last weeks? Months? I mean, cause it didn’t start out at the original, you know, let’s call it March.

Brian Lee:

Yeah, it was, it’s one of those things that’s been difficult for us here in Arizona because as we sat and prepared and watched as the East coast was getting hit, and the rest of the world was getting hit, we were kind of brazing for shock, but for several weeks and even months, we weren’t seeing any cases at all in our jail system and with our employees and as other communities on the East Coast and elsewhere have started to essentially recover. And they’re on the downturn now we’re starting this uptick. And I think it’s a little bit difficult. There’s an added challenge there because people only have so much of an appetite or a level of being able to deal with something for a period of time.

Brian Lee:

We want to move on. And as the rest of the world and the country starts to move on, we’re just starting to get hit. So it’s kinda like this, we’re running a marathon here, you know, and, um, we’re already talking about second waves and things like that. And then all of a sudden, probably within, I’d say in the last three to three to four weeks, you know, we’re starting to see 3000 plus new cases in Maricopa County daily. And then we just started getting lots of positive cases in the jail system. I currently have about 220 detention officers out of work right now related to some type of COVID, whether it’s a family member, or whether they’re positive of themselves. We’ve had about 77 employees confirmed positive for COVID, and we’re, I think, we’re nearing about a thousand positive cases of inmates in our jail system.

Brian Lee:

Now those aren’t current positives, but since the beginning, how many people have tested positive recovered? We currently have probably close to 300 active, positive cases in the jail system right now. And of course, I think anybody listening to this podcast understands the challenges when it comes to different classification levels, the type of crimes, what, you know, what your facility can hold and then add on top of that, we’re trying to maintain social distancing. We’re trying to sanitize areas. We’re dealing with huge chunk of our staff being out of work. So it’s, I’m not going to lie. It’s been pretty hard.

Eli Gage:

Is there anything that you’ve done differently that you think that other jurisdictions might benefit from knowing?

Brian Lee:

That’s a good question. I don’t know that we’ve done anything differently. Um, we’re always. And when you talk about being in the West, I think the way I take that is we’ve never been one to shy away from trying to do things differently from other people and, you know, trying to be innovative and think outside the box. And, and we definitely do that as far as in this current situation, because there are so many unknowns and because we’re talking about people’s health, our employees, and those that are in our custody and whatnot, we try our best to follow the guidelines, you know, the federal government and the CDC. And we do follow the orders of our local government. And we’re just like everybody else we’re completely glued to what’s happening everywhere else because things are constantly changing. There’s a huge amount of information out there that needs to be processed, and we try to keep our ear to the ground.

Brian Lee:

But, you know, I think just like with everybody else are our number one is, trying to determine how we minimize cross-contamination exposure, how we move people less frequently in our jail systems and how we can prevent our staff from having exposure to the population in each other, which I got to tell you is a challenge because one of the big cultural shifts that we’re going through here in Maricopa County is actually transitioning to direct supervision, inmate management. And that’s been a huge undertaking for us to train our staff and to kind of reprogram their way of doing things, to be more interactive with the inmate population and to be more open and more freedom of movement. And right in the middle of trying to adjust that culture, we have a pandemic on our hands that says, stop, stop having this exposure to people, try and keep people in certain areas, don’t be as interactive.

Brian Lee:

And it’s confusing for staff. It’s challenging. They’re doing a great job with the hand that they’ve been dealt. And then, of course, you know, we construct these facilities to try and plan for ease of movement and things like that, which I’m really happy with the way we’ve constructed our new jail facilities because in addition to ease of movement and things, we’ve really tried to do more, to bring services to the inmate population rather than, you know, moving them as much. So that’s been beneficial for us. So there’s, there’s a lot of things I think, I think we’re going to learn a lot from what’s happening right now. And I think this is going to be the single biggest event. That’s probably gonna shape several decades of jail design, building design, criminal justice design, the way we conduct business.

Eli Gage:

That’s a great answer. And I appreciate that. So on a brighter note.

I was going to actually ask about a quick line about sheriff Joe. What was it like to be the chief information officer for Sheriff, Joe?

Brian Lee:

I like to think that it probably is very similar to what it’s like to be the white house, press secretary with president Trump. A lot of people don’t know this. I worked with sheriff Arpaio, and he was very much in tune with the media and, you know, politics and things like that. And I did work directly for him. I got to say, when it comes to learning things from people in my career, he’s one of those people that I learned a lot from, I probably learn more from him than anybody.

Brian Lee:

And just like, I would say, giving any type of leadership training or anything, we learn a lot from a lot of different people. In some, some of those things are good, and some of those things are bad. Sometimes we learn more from those bad leaders and supervisors, but sheriff Arpaio had a way of commanding attention to certain things and creating this level of importance on this thing over here, while you’re not paying attention to this thing that’s going on over there and he definitely was not a person that shied away from trying things differently and, and just kind of doing it the way he wanted to do it. And he did, he did ask me like the opposition to, he liked having people in his camp that disagreed with him and argued with him. And I thought that was pretty valuable. So it was quite an experience for three, maybe four years that I worked directly for him.

Eli Gage:

I bet. Good answer.

Brian Lee:

Thank you.

Eli Gage:

Alright, so let’s talk about the intake transfer and release facility. Bob, what was the project delivery method on this project? The procurement delivery method on this project.

Bob Glass:

The delivery method is actually, which I didn’t really realize is Maricopa County’s standard way of doing business, but they do a construction manager at risk, CM-at-Risk as the industry calls it, and that’s their way they procure things, which I think in their mind, they get to choose their architect, and they get to choose a contractor. So to them, it’s the best of both worlds.

Eli Gage:

Okay. Does a project like this normally start with a master plan?

Bob Glass:

Not normally, but I think we have the advantage in Maricopa to develop that master plan, and like so many master plans that get developed, nothing ever happens. This one actually started phase one and phase one was a new intake center. And so I think Brian was really pushing that same is true with the County not to develop a master plan is one thing. It’s all a big concept for that Durango campus out there, as it moves forward in its life. And probably in 10, 15 years, maybe it gets there eventually, but this was the first building. It was a huge undertaking for the County. And I think the operational savings is what really sold it to me. But Brian probably knows better. He was in the trenches day-to-day trying to get this thing working, but it’s a master plan is the way it should start to really understand what your long-range goal is.

Eli Gage:

So Brian, how do you, how do you balance planning for what you need and planning for what you might need AKA, COVID.

Brian Lee:

Right. You hit the nail on the head. It is the balancing act. And I feel fortunate to have been on this project since the beginning. And like Bob alluded to, you know, we had that master plan in our back pocket and we, everybody worked together on the master plan.

Brian Lee:

We thought in, from all of our stakeholders, all of our criminal justice partners, and we all kind of rallied against some very basic goals that we wanted to achieve as a criminal justice system. And in my personal opinion, I think one of the benefits of having that master plan was from what I’ve seen like Bob mentioned, we’ve been on this project for about eight years now, eight years is an eternity in the world. We live in today. As far as people being there, you know, you have elected officials come and go, you have laws come and go. You have trends and things like that, that come and go. And in my position with Maricopa County, the advantage that I have is we started with that foundation of those common goals and objectives that we wanted to achieve. And it got documented on paper. We’ve got buy-in from our Maricopa County board of supervisors, the County manager’s office, the office of management and budget.

Brian Lee:

And we all agreed to work towards those goals. So as the years go on, you know, as, as projects come and go, you get, you’ve got new elected officials that come in, you have new people in charge of different areas of the criminal justice system. And a lot of people have ideas. I want to try this. I want to go in this direction. I don’t necessarily agree with how my predecessor did that. And I think the master plan kept us on track. It kept us focused to move in a particular direction. And one of the things that I found in that master plan in this process, when you say, how do you balance what you need and what you might need looking at it from all different perspectives from all of the partners involved, looking at it from the folks that are writing the checks, the taxpayers, the board of supervisors, our facilities management division.

Brian Lee:

They want to build a sufficient jail to meet our needs, but they also want to be cognizant of taxpayer dollars. They want to be cognizant of local arresting agencies to make sure that we’re meeting their needs. One of the things that we saw was, you know, local law enforcement officers spending a lot of time in the intake process. We want to address some of those situations and kind of be responsible with taxpayer dollars in general. So as we actually went to design and we started looking at what we actually wanted to build, of course, being the jailers, the people that are actually going to operate this jail. There’s a lot of things that we wanted, you know, that we wanted to actually design into the process that may not have been practical in the eyes of folks that are making policy and actually signing the checks over.

Brian Lee:

And, um, you know those generated a lot of conversations. We’re talking about creating a replacement facility for more minimum-security inmates. We’re looking at direct supervision; we’re looking at ease of movement, things like that. So you balance that with the fact of who would ever build a jail and plan for a pandemic, you know, that happens once every a hundred years. How do you do that? So I’ll just go back to what I said earlier. I think in general, when we, first of all, we decided we wanted to build an adaptable space. You know, we wanted a space that, unlike many of our previous jails, was a very specific design towards a certain process. I think one of the first things I asked for in the process was, give me something that’s easy to change because I know the minute we opened this place from when we actually started designing a hundred things are going to change and they’re going to be different.

Brian Lee:

So we want that adaptability. So when we looked at meeting with the County and whatnot, when we wanted wheeling towards higher security cells and sectioned off spaces, that was a little bit cost-intensive for them. So what we did, we came to agreements where we may be set the infrastructure there, um, for future planning, if we have to come through and build cells where we now have open bays. So like in our housing units, we would, we would build all of our housing units. It’s on the same floor plan, whether they have cells or whether they’re open bays with the understanding in mind that, Hey, if we have to, if we need to, we can bring in prefabricated cells or we can build cells. We have the space, we have the room it’s general there. So we, we plan for what we wanted, but we also understood we had to give up some concessions.

Brian Lee:

So we had to really prioritize what was important for us in this process. And that was direct to provision. We wanted to restrict the amount of movement. We were transferring inmates like crazy, you know, to several different jail facilities within 72 hours of incarceration. So we wanted to reduce that. We wanted to have a better idea of people’s medical conditions and their classifications and things like that. So it was really important to us to have that flexibility in the space and have the ability to come back later if we needed to and, and kind of, um, make those adjustments if need be. And that, I think that was born in the master plan. You know, you look at every one of your facilities, and when he says we need more security, everybody’s required to go back. Okay. When the master plan that says this facility is going to be the lower security, the adjacent still is higher security.

Brian Lee:

It’s something that everybody can reference to keep that conversation moving forward.

Eli Gage:

You opened in April?

Brian Lee:

Um, we, so just to clarify, this project was actually, I’m gonna go ahead and call it three different jails actually because we have the intake transfer and release center, that’s our intake. Um, and then we built a 512 bed, temporary housing facility directly adjacent to that intake facility. That’s 512 beds. We consider that almost to be its own facility. It’s a large facility. And then right next to both of those facilities, we built a 1,280 bed, minimum security, direct supervision, jail that was designed to replace our Durango jail. So we were scheduled to open ITR in April that did not happen. Uh, we, we were scheduled to open just as the pandemic hit us. And we pumped the brakes really quick when we started having issues, getting in supplies and all of those challenges, court processes and things like that that were socially distancing.

Brian Lee:

Our bookings went way down. Our inmate counts have gone way down. Um, subsequently in that process, we went ahead and open that 1,280-bed Jail facility that was actually supposed to be the last one to be open, but we found that it made more sense for us to open that jail because we had the greatest amount of control in that jail. And we were pretty much the only stakeholder, uh, that was affected by that jail opening. And it provided us much more room for social distancing flexibility and bringing the services to those inmates. So we have not yet opened up ITR and five 12. However, discussion is underway our, our court system, or they are very anxious in getting that facility opened and they’re constantly coming to us saying, okay, what are we doing? When are we going to open this? So we are meeting as we speak.

Brian Lee:

And if I had to guess, I would probably say in the next 90 days, hopefully as we see these COVID cases, starting to curb a little bit, we’re starting to map out what that opening is going to look like.

Bob Glass:

I think Brian is a tremendously supportive court system that they were on board of assistance concept from the very beginning and actually a plan to move staff. And up at that building, they were pushing you right now, Brian, to say, let’s get it open. So they know it’s an important piece of the system.

Brian Lee:

Yeah. And they had Bob, they actually have court staff working in the building now. And that’s kind of why they’re prompting us because they’re, as a, as attorneys and judges and things are virtually appearing to court hearings. Now they’re actually doing it from there, even though there aren’t inmates in the facility. So they’re very excited about the jail. And one of the things that they had hoped to achieve through that jail is greater public access to the criminal justice system with increased public galleries and viewing areas. And just kinda well, judge Welty, our presiding judge, he’ll talk about transparency in the court system and, um, making people a part of that process, that’s really important to them. So Bob’s absolutely correct. I’ve been tremendously supportive of this process.

Eli Gage:

You spoke about the staff, and I’m curious how you, you must’ve handpicked your staff to run this project and work with you on the project. And it goes back to what I observed from afar, quite frankly, but this team worked Arrington Watkins Architects, CGL, your whole staff at Maricopa County Sheriff’s office, Hensel Phelps it meshed. And you could, I could sense it from Sacramento. How do you, how do you pull that off? Because that’s not always a successful model and when you mesh a bunch of different subs, if you will, together, and this one worked.

Brian Lee:

Yeah, no, I agree with you on that wholeheartedly. And I think, again, like I mentioned earlier, I think a big part of that success is consistency and the individuals that were part of that project, like Bob mentioned him and I have both been on the project since the beginning. Mike Quinn from Arrington Watkins, from our facilities management division, Reid Spaulding, some of our board of supervisors. We also had a criminal justice coordinating council here in Maricopa County. That’s been very supportive and help to develop the goals and objectives of this facility. But I think it’s the consistency of that group of people working together, you know, being able to pick up the phone and call and say, Hey, we’ve got an issue we need to deal with.

Brian Lee:

Um, and I think that’s something that I found in my career in general. You know, when I, when I show up to coordinating councils and things like that with other stakeholder agencies, and I’m the new guy at the meeting, if, if they, if judges and other, you know, agency leaders see a different person coming to that meeting all the time, they’re just kind of rolling their eyes and saying, okay, this it’s not really going to matter what we say here, because it’s going to be another person and a couple of months, and we’ll be back to square one. And that’s frustrating. People invest a lot of their time and energy into these projects. So I think when you have consistency in people that are a part of that project, I can very easily turn to Bob or Mike Quinn and say, Hey Bob, do you remember this conversation from four years ago when we talked about this and we can all quickly get it back to that point in time and remember how we got to a point, whereas with somebody else, it wouldn’t, it wouldn’t matter. You wouldn’t be to that point. So I think it’s just, it’s been a phenomenal group to work with. And I think it’s led to a very successful project with every project you have. There’s going to be, you know, people are going to stumble, there’s going to be issues and things like that. I think we’ve been pretty minimal with us cause we’ve, we’ve had great working relationships.

Eli Gage:

Brian. Are you aware of the term bait and switch?

Brian Lee:

Yeah. Yes I am.

Eli Gage:

When it comes to procuring these types of services. So from an owner’s perspective, you’re aware that when we walk in and we present and we put these resumes all over the board and it looks all hunky Dory, you’re aware as an owner, that there could be a bait and switch at some point.

Brian Lee:

Yeah, no. And I’ll even, I’ll, I’ll go a step further and tell you, um, any person in my position in a law enforcement agency, that’s almost how you approach these things. When you go to that first RFP meeting, when you’re selecting vendors and things, you’re okay. They’re going to tell us what we want to hear. Guys are going to show up with shiny shoes and briefcases and try and sell a product to us. So it’s a challenge. You know, I imagine it’s a challenge for the vendors and the architects and everybody providing those services because you’re dealing with a skeptical group of folks that have probably felt that they’ve been mishandled before and people don’t feel like they always get what they want. I personally, haven’t really experienced that in this process, but that’s, you know, that’s how people usually approach it. They’re nervous about these things, because again, we work in public offices, right? We’re public officials, we’re, we’re funded by taxpayer dollars and nobody wants to be accused of being too cozy with vendors or screwing up a project or overspending or misdelivering or making the wrong decisions.

Brian Lee:

Everybody thinks about the headline test. What is this decision going to look like in the media? How’s this going to affect my agency and things like that. So it is a very challenging situation. And I think that’s, again, I’ll go back to that consistency in the process. When you develop these working relationships, you want to work with those people for a while, it makes you nervous when you see a lot of different people coming into the room.

Eli Gage:

That’s well put. And that’s good for us to know because I know Bob who runs that division, we were aware of it and we don’t want to do that either. And it’s good to know that you’re aware of it as well for future. Alright, so I’ve got to talk about the tours because I usually like to meet up with the tours. I know that Bob spends a lot of time in a van going to jail facilities all day long, eating, powdered eggs at the Hampton Inn, and getting up and doing it again. And, you know, I’m curious from your perspective, you’ve got to sit in that van with all your coworkers and go to another jail and you have to eat the powdered eggs too. And then go back to the Hampton Inn. That’s gotta be grueling.

Brian Lee:

Yeah. I think everybody agrees. Bob spends a lot of time in jail And, uh, I don’t know question out of him, but I, I think a lot of people may find that process grueling. And I think the buildup to it as you’re preparing for those trips and tours, it’s grueling, but I personally, once I’m there and I’ve seen what I want to see, and I’ve, I’ve spoken to my counterparts at other agencies and other facilities, I find a lot of value in it. And especially once I’ve come back and I’m bringing information back to help make decisions to move forward in projects, I look back on those tours and those experiences and think, man, I am really glad I did that. They were really valuable to me, but yes, it’s, I mean the thought of, you know, putting on a suit and jumping on an airplane and going into the rental car and all that is a little bit grueling, but it is definitely worth it in my eyes.

Bob Glass:

If I can add something Maricopa is a challenging tour. Cause you know, we had an agency at that time that was intaking in 300 a day. So defined comparable agencies that had kind of a little bit of the direct supervision concept that they wanted to move to. It was not the easiest thing in the world and trying to keep it close out in the West. So we weren’t spending weeks traveling. So it was interesting. I think the combination was really seeing LA County and how the thousands of people there were all sitting in direct supervision style. So that was fun for me to go back and see some of the similar projects that I’ve done, but it was fun to do.

Eli Gage:

You love powdered eggs, Bob?

Bob Glass:

I like seeing the old facilities you know. What can i say?

Eli Gage:

The last podcast, Brian, we were making fun of Bob because some of the facilities he’s going back and rebuilding are the ones that they’re tearing down that he built originally when he was right out of college.

Brian Lee:

That’s when you know you’ve been in the business a while. Huh?

Eli Gage:

Bob, do you have some questions for Brian here? I could go on. I could go on for hours.

Bob Glass:

I think one of the things I’m kind of curious about Brian is just, you know, obviously, you’ve got an empty ITR sitting there and the design of it gives you a lot of us use of adaptability and more space, certainly open space. You could probably social distance better there than your existing intake center. Yeah. So what’s holding you back in your mind is the time the movement because you probably could have a better operations in the new one.

Brian Lee:

Yeah, no, I agree with you a hundred percent and you actually echo the comments made to us from the superior courts here. You know, they’re, they’re anxious to get in that facility because it’s a better project for sure. The challenge that we find is the number of stakeholders and getting everybody ready to go into that facility. And I’ll bring you back. Back in may. When we opened up the actual 1280, we actually brought in our public health director to give us an assessment. Is, does it make sense for us to transfer operations from one jail to another? And this is at a time like I spoke of earlier where the East coast was getting slammed, but we hadn’t start seeing cases yet. And in the public health records and you were in a perfect timeframe right now to get over to that facility, move in before you guys get slammed.

Brian Lee:

Because once you get into that facility, like you said, there’s more room for social distancing and whatnot. We were able to pick up and move quickly because it was just us and correctional health services. Now, when we look at ITR, we’re talking about Maricopa County superior courts, the city of Phoenix city, Phoenix police department County, attorney’s office, public defender’s office, the interpreter’s office, the justice courts, the probations department. There’s a lot of departments that are actually operating out of there. And when we were having discussions, whether or not we would carry through with our actual opening date, we were waiting on supplies to arrive, to open up the jail facility in one of the major ones that I can speak to is as you know, Bob, this new ITR center is actually designed to house the property of our whole entire jail system. It’s designed to hold about 12,000 inmates properties. So as they all get booked and released from the same central location, which is new to us, their property is right there and we can, we, we can get it from them and store it. And as soon as they get released from custody, you know, we’re getting it to them and out the door. That was the whole goal of this project to move people quickly through the system to reduce our count, our numbers, the amount of time people spend in the process and in the system. And one of the critical components to that property room was the property bags that we’re going to use to seal the property and the inventory system and hindsight 2020 that I think the, the actual, um, vendor that we had purchased those bags from was getting those bags from China. And we did not. We only recently within the last couple of weeks have completed that order.

Brian Lee:

So there was a lot of things like that, that we were still waiting on from vendors and things that were critical to a successful opening. And one of the things that I, uh, you know, that I bring up a lot in these stakeholder meetings, because we, we like to say at the Sheriff’s office, we can do anything. If, if we have to, if it’s time to open it and everybody thinks it’s time to go, we can go, we can make it happen. We can, we can create workarounds and things like that. The challenge that I’m facing with COVID-19 right now is in addition to this jail facility, being a complete shift in culture and the way we do business for our staff, with them dealing with COVID-19 right now, with over 200 people out with all of those different things happening, I’m trying to make sure all of these little loose ends are taken care of before we transfer the staff over there.

Brian Lee:

So they’re not having to deal with we don’t actually, they have the supplies that haven’t been delivered yet. We don’t really know are comfortable yet with how to operate this facility and moved down 200 people right now. So those are all things that we, we take into account. And of course, we like everybody else in the country kind of got flat-footed, they’re like, what’s happening. What’s going to happen? What’s it gonna look like? How long is this thing gonna last? Everybody just kind of came to the consensus. Let’s park it for a minute and see what happens. And now I think we have a better idea. So that’s why we’ve kind of shifted into that, uh, that planning phase now of actually mapping out how we’re going to open, how we’re going to socially distant. One of the challenges in the pandemic that I think we’re trying to really workaround right now is the five 12, and the five 12 was designed for people to constantly be transitioning through. And that’s the benefit or the beauty of it was to keep people moving through the system and not transferring to different jail facilities. Right now that kinda conflicts with our quarantine and cohorting process, which we were totally not expecting. So there’s a, a beautiful facility with a lot more square footage, a lot more services and everything. And. you’ll appreciate this, Bob, we have this facility now that’s adaptable. And even though we may not use it as a 512, until we have some sort of vaccine or process here, there’s a hundred other things. We could use it for different ways that we could use it, that would benefit us. So that’s exactly what we’re mapping out right now because we can’t cohort people through there for 14 days. Let’s, let’s see how best to use that facility in conjunction with the ITR. So it’s coming soon.

Brian Lee:

It’s just, you know, the whirlwind of other things going around us. We wanted to make sure we don’t want to overwhelm our staff. It’s easy for me to sit in an office and say, yep, let’s do it. Let’s move on it. And it’s, it’s a whole other thing when you’re the guy that’s pushing the buttons and opening the doors and things like that. And trying to figure out, you know, who’s coming in with, you know, the virus and things like that. So I think we’ve had a little bit of time now to think about it and absolutely we’re looking at those advantages and we will be moving forward pretty soon. I’m happy to say because I’ve been waiting on this thing to open for a long time. And I sure would like to see it up and running.

Bob Glass:

To follow up that real quick with Brian, years ago, it’s been quite a few years now, Hillsborough County opened in Florida there, and it was the top of the country, this news intake center, the new direction, new submission to open us to things. And people are looking at what you’ve got there right now, Brian and saying, we all want to come see it. Obviously the COVID had, uh, so you’re gonna open up the midst of a whole lot of tourists happening shortly because everybody wants to see, first of all, then we’ll see if you can do it this major shift to direct supervision because you haven’t been there for many, many years. Second of all, it’s a whole new concept in intake. And I think it’s going to be fun to see it, watch it go.

Brian Lee:

Yeah, no, I agree with you a hundred percent. It’s, uh, it’s exciting. It’s challenging. It’s nerve-wracking. Sometimes it keeps me awake. And I think if you, if you’ve ever worked in a, a large organization with a lot of people, you’ll understand the challenges associated with shifting people’s culture and, uh, rolling out training and policies and everything else. So it’s been, it’s been an undertaking and we’ve had help from a lot of different people. I’ll go back to the conversation earlier about the tours and getting out there and the value in those tours. One of the things I failed to mention in those tours, that’s been dramatically invaluable in this process, is those relationships developed with those other agencies, you know, with going out and not, not only when I’m out at a Los Angeles County or Clark County in Las Vegas, I’m looking at their facility and their design and their layout and stuff. I’m noticing other technology that they’re utilizing and, and way that they’re operating.

Brian Lee:

And I’ve been fortunate enough to develop some relationships with my counterparts. In other places, I can pick up a phone and say, Hey, how do you, how do you staff this? What is your, can I see your policy on use of force or whatever, and you actually get to see it in operation. And that was a huge part of it. It was valuable to become a part of some of the peer groups, the large jail network, the American jail association, all of those things where, you know, you’re seeing those trends and hot topics and in these jail systems across the country. And it’s just like, we talk about when we all get together, everybody. Well, a lot of people think they have these majorly unique challenges, but I guarantee if you’re going through with it, if there’s something that you’re being challenged within your facility, the chances are in this large country, somebody else’s too, and there’s a good chance that somebody’s maybe already created a solution to that or created a workaround or whatever.

Brian Lee:

So it’s just, it’s wonderful to have that ability to connect with those individuals and jump on a plane and go out there and see how it works for them, or to take a look at their layout. So I’m excited for that. I’m excited for people to, uh, to come out and see what we have and how it’s operating. And, and I think most of the people, my counterparts in this industry understand probably better than me, that I don’t expect to open up day one and walk around and have my staff all roses and smiles and happy with the way things are going. You know, there’s, there’s challenges, there’s growing pains and things like that, but we’ve expected that. And we plan for that since day one, when we talk about flexibility and adaptability in our facilities and preparing for this. So, um, it is going to be a sight to see, I would have thought we would have been well underway and normal operations here for a while, but Hey, it’s 2020, what can you say?

Eli Gage:

What do you tell? I mean, that was, I loved hearing about what you’ve learned from the larger counties. You’re obviously one of the larger counties. What do you, what do you say to one, want a smaller County that comes to you and says, you know, what advice do you have for a project of this magnitude? What do you tell them?

Brian Lee:

I think just what I would, I talked about earlier, you know, don’t be afraid to pick up the phone and, you know, talk to those folks that have been through and gone through the process themselves. So I’ve, I’ve gotten great advice from my counterparts at much smaller facilities. You know, people that, you know, that are, have, uh, implemented direct supervision. And it’s kind of fun. That relationship is actually really fun because people with years and years of experience of running these direct supervision, jails, you know, they know their business, but they’re really excited to see how it’s going to work for us too. So they’re learning something in the process and they want to be a part of this transition. And I think in a way it helped them validate what they’ve been teaching for years or what they’ve been pushing for years. Because you, when you see a lot of these smaller jurisdictions operate a certain way, people that come places like mine say, Oh yeah, well, that’s really easy to do when you’ve got, you know, 150 inmates, they can’t be done in this. So I think for them, it validates, yeah, you can do it. And we were seeing it happen right now. You know, you, you have to take it one step at a time and you have to be very systematic about how you implement it, but those smaller jurisdictions, there’s just a huge amount of people in our industry that have been through this that are everybody’s willing and available to pick up the phone and answer your questions. There are forums out there, put those shoes on and walk around these facilities. You know, one of the things we did, uh, the most fun we had was going through Las Vegas. And I think we went to San Bernardino, Colorado, Denver. And, uh, you know, you, you, we meet our counterparts. The other chiefs and the captains are running the facility, but it’s always fine. It’s always fun to kind of drop back in those tours and kind of corner, uh, a housing unit officer and say, tell us the real story. Is this, this thing work or what?

Bob Glass:

So you went out on tours, you came back and you decided you were going to develop a direct Supervision Intake Center, maybe one of the largest at that time, except LA county and maybe Clark, in the country. How’d that go over at the department for the whole agency?

Brian Lee:

Well, it didn’t go well at first. I always joke about this when I first got put, I mean, it’s just kind of funny to me when I think about it, how things have evolved over the years, but very early on in my deputy chief careers, I got promoted to deputy chief, my boss that actually put me on this project from day one, pulled me in and said, Hey, you’re, you’re a younger guy. You’re going to be in this agency for a long time. You’re going to be in leadership for a long time. And, and he said, I would like to put somebody like you on this project, that’s going to be able to see it through, you know, from beginning to end, it’s going to take that input and everything. And that’s you, you’re the guy he says, so I’m putting you on this project. And I’m, we’re talking probably it’s been a month or two since I’ve been a chief in his, he says that I only have one bit of direction or one order for you go, do you make the decisions you call the shots I trust your judgment and everything. I’m just going to ask you not to bring back that direct supervision business. And I said, okay, boss, do the best I can. And look where I ended. I can not follow directions because that’s exactly where we ended up. But I will tell you, um, again, meeting with these, these work groups, these forms, and going on these tours and everything that really reinforced the case that I made to my, my command stuff at the time when I came back and said, look, I know you told me not to come back with direct supervision. I know there’s things that you were concerned about, but you haven’t been out there you haven’t seen it in practice. I was able to make a case and I, and we took quite a team with us. Bob, if you’ll remember, we had the medical director from our correctional services division. We had our mental health director. I think I had probably three or four other chiefs with me from my department. We had a healthy crew of folks. And when you’ve got five or six people that are department heads from different agencies, and they’re all, they’ve come to a consensus, we saw it and it works. And this is the case. We’re going to make it difficult to argue with that. And it’s difficult to argue with data and information. And again, back to the, you know, the coordinating councils and things like that. So yeah, that was just quite a process to be a part of that. And it’s interesting how it’s evolved.

Eli Gage:

Brain I know you are very supportive of the NIC and I think, you know, to your point earlier, that was a big support network for you probably during those eight or 10 years. What do you see filling that void going into the future?

Brian Lee:

Gosh, that’s a good question. And I know it’s, it’s disappointing to see that group that’s been cut in the funding that’s been cut because it’s just been invaluable, the resources in that group. And I, I thoroughly enjoyed one of my favorite things to do was to go to the large jail network out in Aurora, Colorado twice a year, because you sit in a room with 80 or 90 other people doing your same job and, you know, talking about hot topics, jail designs and things like that. Um, and it was just wonderful. I always came back with a, you know, all kinds of ideas and things that I wanted to try and answers to questions and new relationships with people that I could call. And, and they had an extensive library of resources, you know, and again, when you’re building that case for making decisions like this, something that was helpful with the NIC was, you know, there, they were an arm of the department of justice, you know, the federal government. And there was, they had a huge, uh, arm of research and data and evidence and things like that. So I don’t know, I don’t know what feels fills that void. I, I sure know there’s a lot of people from those groups that still talk and still get together and those relationships are still there, but, you know, over time people go away and those things part ways, but hopefully, there’s something that fills that void. And I mean, from all aspects, not just those relationships, but the data research information, the products and the structure of getting those groups together and doing those things, it was, it Was important for me. And, uh, I know it was for a lot of other people too, so I hope something, something comes in and fills that void.

Eli Gage:

Right. Chief Lee, Robert Glass, thank you for your time tonight.

Brian Lee:

Thank you very much for having me appreciate it.

Eli Gage:

We appreciate it.

Bob Glass:

Thanks, Brian for having time.

Brian Lee:

Thanks, Bob.

Eli Gage:

So again, thanks to Chief Brian Lee and Robert Glass. I hope you found tonight’s episode informative. You can find this podcast on most of the major platforms, the Apple podcast, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Stitcher. It’s also available on our website at cglcompanies.com. I hope you will please subscribe and review our podcast. It means a lot to us and to me, and if you’re interested in being a future guest, please send an email to podcast@cglcompanies.com. Thanks again.

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